Jennifer Levin
Hi everyone and welcome to the newest episode of Untethered. Today’s conversation explores what happens when traumatic loss isn’t an isolated experience, but something woven into the everyday reality of a community. I am joined by Big John Jr., better known as Big John, a union electrician, superintendent, community leader, and founder of Big John Cares. In this interview, we talk about the ways repeated exposure to violence and loss can lead to numbness, the importance of learning how to process grief, and the connection between self-esteem, accountability, and healing. Big John also shares his own powerful journey from experiencing and causing harm in his community to dedicating his life to helping young people build healthier lives, find meaningful careers, and become builders of their communities.
John, I am so pleased to have you here with us today. Can you get us started by just telling us a little bit about yourself?
Big John
My name is John E. Harriel Jr. better known as Big John. I am a union electrician. I'm a superintendent for Moral Metals. I've been with Moral Metals approximately 30 years. Young man come out to communities, and when I say community, I'm talking about communities with high violence and police involvement. And you know, young man went to L.A. U.S.D. school district, Didn't graduate, but now the very communities I destroyed are the communities I'm building now. That's basically in a nutshell who I am. I'm I'm a father, I'm a son, I'm a brother, I'm a uncle, and I'm a good citizen in my community now.
Jennifer Levin
That's probably one of the best introductions I have ever heard.
Big John
Not a problem.
Jennifer Levin
So, as you know, grief is a universal response to having something we love or care about taken away from us.
Jennifer Levin
But every person and every community experiences it so differently.
Big John
Yes.
Jennifer Levin
And how would you describe some of the everyday realities that individuals in your community live with when it comes to traumatic loss,
Big John
I think in my in my community communities like mine, I'm going to say the black community and and that our communities. I'm going to say that we live with the absence of grieving, meaning that it is a unspoken rule, almost as if it's like a trait to grieve is to be weak, and unfortunately, in our community, grieving isn't processed. It's this is how it is. Move on. No one talks about it when there's something happening. People will close their doors and shut their windows and be glad that it's not them. They'll have a conversation about it, but it'll it'll just move on. And I believe that that kind of mentality infects a community. To whereas, if I don't care about myself, I can't care about nobody else. And that type of behavior sometimes is championed. Whereas now, me being a individual who processes things now, that's detrimental in our community. We must learn how to process, heal, healthy, and understand what has happened. How do we process it? How do I have a healthy conversation about it? And how do I move forward healthy-wise, mentally, and be able to have a conversation with others in the same community that might suffer from tragic situations. And how do I deal with it?
Jennifer Levin
Wow, I know you've experienced traumatic loss yourself. Was there a specific moment or a loss that changed the direction of your life or how you think about things.
Big John
Not really, because again, we're talking about the training. At the time when I had low self-esteem, and I didn't realize I had low self-esteem, it was when I started doing this work that I realized I had low self-esteem. I can't really pinpoint, but I do know that the totality of it all, because not only did I witness grief. Remember, I was a hardcore gang member and drug dealer. Not only did I witness grief, but I also caused grief because the things that I did with selling drugs, I did a lot of damage in my community, and individuals who were addicted-I don't know what they were doing to get the drugs-but I know I had a part of it because I was selling the thing that they needed, and no telling who they robbed, who they stole from, who they might have done terrible things, or people were doing terrible things to get the drugs. By me having that product, they had to do what they had to do. It's almost like somebody doing anything for money. I had to process that, and then I had to process when, you know, my grand, my great grandmother, my mother, when they passed away, I had to process that, and I just process it as I keep doing the work that I'm doing. I still remember, but all those things make me think about that the work that I'm doing has to be the work of how can I help you? What can I do to make this better? And this is why I've never left my community because now I speak life. I speak how can I help you? And those were the things that had me change the way that I think when people that I care dearly about are no longer here, and I had to realize what part I played, even if it was by proxy or from a distance. How do I make that different now? And the main thing was the way that I think. I think about life. I think about human beings. I think about being righteous towards individuals and doing what's right, no matter where they come from.
Jennifer Levin
When did you experience that shift in your thinking and realizing I have low self-esteem and I need to start doing things differently?
Big John
I believe I started that when I was in prison, and unfortunately, I had to go to prison to learn this. I shouldn't have had to go to prison to learn this. I couldn't read, and when I say I couldn't read, I couldn't comprehend. And what I found out was, 75% of people, when they graduate, no matter what community they come from, the comprehension level is seventh grade. That's the big number right there. No matter where they come from. When I was in prison, I learned how to read and comprehend, and when I started learning what it was to be a man, what it was to be a black man, when I started learning about my culture, it gave me a level of esteem to where I started loving myself, and as I did that, I understood that I had an opportunity to come back and try to correct some things that I did wrong, and that's when I understood that in there. And when I got out, I understood that the task was at hand. It's for me to go back, and first I had to atone for my wrongdoings, even though it was due to my ignorance and it was due to me following the wrong individuals. At the same time, I had to accept responsibility for the damage I caused in my community. And then the third thing was, what am I going to do about it? And what I'm doing about it is changing lives through my life skills class that I do, and getting people into careers and be builders of the community instead of destroyers of the community. And I just thought about the things that I did growing up, and I looked at my community, and I saw what was happening to those who are ignorant to thyself and ignorant to policies and laws in their community that was destroying it, and the violence, because that's what we were taught, and I just knew I couldn't be a part of that no more. I had to do something different, and now I talk to young men and women that come from the similar backgrounds, and we're teaching them how to pick up tape measures instead of guns. But in order to do that, they must learn how to love themselves.
Jennifer Levin
John, that's just such a powerful story, and the work you do is so powerful. Tell us about Big John Kares. It's with a K A R E S. And and what led you to start this foundation to do this work?
Big John
Because I do care, I care, and the Big John Kares is basically just an organization having to do with education. Because one day I want to build my own institution, because I felt that the school system let me down. Because when I would come to school late or or miss days, the teacher would just put me in the back as if I was a dunce or something, not knowing I hadn't ate, not knowing that I just got shot at, never asking those questions. But for me, I always found it a little bit Insane that we're in a community with people that look like me, but a lot of the teachers didn't look like me, and some of the things that I was learning, I'm sitting there like, and so now that I'm older, and I have a healthy respect for my culture and everybody else's culture, I just want to build a school that tackles the things that we need to know about us. We're some great people. Before enslavement and even during enslavement, look what we came up with you know the things that we invented, but people don't know about it. And I mean, it's just it's just me wanting to understand us and and share our culture with the world, not in a negative. But here's what we do positive. All of us are not thieves and crooks, and you know we uh we think, I love my family just like anybody else. I want to see people do good, and I'll help anybody. And my culture is rich. Let's learn about it. Let's let's get away from the lies. Let's learn about it, and and that's why I formed it. And we do things in the community, like my turkey giveaway, my Christmas giveaway, and we do the the celebrity basketball game. And it's just one of those things where to show people that hey, you could come in this community that everybody deemed to be bad, and learn that we're doing some good things down here. We getting people careers. We giving, we feeding the people. We we helping people out, and we giving them knowledge that transcends every culture, every language, and every color. Because high self esteem is high self esteem. Hatred is hatred. It has no economic background, and giving is giving. We can do any community, do anywhere else. It's all good.
Jennifer Levin
Such amazing work, you know. As a as a white woman, I can, you know, I can only pretend to even grasp some of what you're, what you're sharing, and just, you know, traumatic grief. I work with individuals who've experienced these sudden and unexpected deaths one at a time. But you are working with people who-that's their daily reality.
Big John
Daily.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah.
Big John
Daily reality. Yes.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. And how do you think? What patterns? What do you notice in somebody who's living in that constant presence of loss?
Big John
The constant presence of loss becomes numbness, and I'll give you an example of that. In our community, one of the things you'll notice is that 99% of the homes have bars around them. Why is that? Because there's this false sense of insecurity, and and you become accustomed to being in bars. Well, that leads to the fact that when law enforcement comes to and take you to jail, you're okay with it because you you used to being locked up because you self put yourself in a bar and put bars around your house because, for some reason, you think that that's going to protect you from the ills of the world. No, and in our community, it's normal to see an ambulance and a helicopter eight, nine times a day. It's so normal that when the ambulance goes down the street, there are people actually driving that don't want to pull over because they feel that the ambulance is hindering them for wherever the hell they gotta go. That's what happens when it's continuous grief; it becomes normal, and that is not good in no other community that happens. Ambulances over there. Everybody gonna be like, "Hey, what is going on? Why is that ambulance over here? And what are we doing?
Jennifer Levin
No, I'm sorry. Go ahead, finish, please.
Big John
I'm just saying this is this is what happens when individuals get a certain stigma, and then therefore, when the so-called individuals come through to create oppression, it's not even thought of twice because people will say they're doing it to themselves.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah, I'm thinking about coping skills and ways that I work with people to cope with loss. But you're here saying that the community isn't even talking about grief. They're talking about loss.
Big John
They don't because, and you tell me you're in a you're in a field of expertise that has to deal with grief. Just you as a white woman. How many grief black grief counselors you know, they're dealing in black communities.
Jennifer Levin
I can count them on one hand.
Big John
Exactly, and count them in one hand, and think about the whole United States, and think about even when you do count them on one hand, is that particular counselor even experienced in the black community?
Jennifer Levin
Yeah
Big John
I can't name one affluent place where a person that looks like me and been through what I've been through can go talk to somebody and get an expert diagnosis and treatment because again, it's not free, and most people that are in your field they wouldn't even come in these communities and do that work, because even them, good people, subconsciously, what they've been fed, i.e. media, TV, music, will influence their thought process unconsciously, and they will, You know, go into it. I give you a perfect example. I remember when when I was speaking to you, and you were saying, "Come out. When you were come out here, you said, "Hey, you know, you think it'd be okay if I do this? And I'm saying to myself subconsciously, "She's saying, 'Man, look, I know it's tough down there. Will I be okay? Yeah." You're gonna be okay, I got you. But that was a subconscious of, even though you're doing. I know you're not like that. Subconsciously, when you made that statement, I was like, "You're gonna be okay when you get down here. Just let me know I got you, and that's how it is. And that's it's just like I'm gonna give you the reverse of that. It's just like a black person going somewhere where it's all white people. Subconsciously, they're gonna think some kind of way something bad is gonna happen.
Big John
And that's unfortunate. And that's how now that's at a micro level. Just imagine the violence that's going on, and I mean, you think about-I give a perfect example again. Think about what happened in Mississippi, with that young lady who we know didn't steal anything out the store, but when she raised her baby up, the police shot the baby. Baby was only one years old. Now, she, everybody else, didn't even matter. That's not a big story, because it was it was another black baby, and it was like, well, she was a thief anyway. That's the part that we got to get past.
Jennifer Levin
Right.
Big John
No, that was a human life.
Big John
That was a baby. Why would the cop? Because everybody knows, even people that's not black, that had that kid been a different color, he wouldn't have done that.
Big John
And again, not saying that this person that they just wanted to go kill a baby, but that thing in the back of their head, they rock. And even if they did steal something, really, a one-year-old? You didn't know that was a baby when they put it on? Come on.
Big John
Right. And then the community has to deal with that.
Jennifer Levin
There's a term I call grief overload, and it's you know when you talked about the numbness, and there's just so much of that. I just can't even imagine.
Big John
Oh, it's it's unreal to where to the fact where I you just talk about it and just try to get through it, because if if I try to take that on, it's too much.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah, but I know you're trying to make a difference in your work. Talk about some of the life skills, the coping skills that you teach to the young people.
Big John
Well, one of the things we teach not only young people but to all people. I mean, yesterday we had a life skill session on unhealthy relationships, and why do people stay in them?
Big John
Some of it have to do with money. Some of it have to do with proxy stuff like kids, married, and things of that nature. And what we teach is how to respond, not react. And to respond means I've eliminated the negative, established the facts, and chose my best option. Oftentimes, people will receive information; they'll accept the information, but the part that they'll miss is they won't execute what the information is to get out of a certain situation. Then what they'll do is is they'll blame everything but themselves because no one ever ever ever wants to admit that their baby is ugly. No one wants to admit that, and no one wants to admit that if I feel like I've been robbed or taken advantage of, it was an inside job. And what part did I play in the robbery or being taken advantage of? And we teach accountability down there. That's why my class is a mixture of everybody: blacks, white, Mexican kids, older people, younger people, prison, no prison, school, no school, and an unhealthy relationship is unhealthy relationship. Whether it's in a relationship where I'm looking at getting married or having a significant other, or it's a relationship where it has to do with boss and worker, those are unhealthy too, or or worker to worker. A lot of things can be unhealthy if the person that's engaging the relationship feel like they got the upper hand on the other person,
Big John
And then and then other person not understanding the framework that they're in, and get themselves in trouble. And I understand that. And that was what we teach. We teach life skills. We deal with low self-esteem, dysfunctional family, anger management, angry behaviors, choices. We deal with financial literacy because those all those things contribute to dysfunction, and if I don't understand it, I get myself in trouble if I don't understand how to manage my money. I can get myself in situations where I might be with the wrong mate because of financial gains or not. I could be with the wrong person, thinking that them beating me is a form of love because that's what I witnessed with. my mother and my father, they would always stay together because I was taught that family is everything. You know, you love them no matter what. There's no such thing as that. We mean love you no matter what. That's insane. Right. But those are the things we teach.nI break down things that people might have been taught, and get them to open their mind and think more from a 360 point of view versus just a top view.
Jennifer Levin
Well, I have so much gratitude for you. You've invited me to come to one of your skills classes, and we are gonna we're gonna talk about grief and loss and traumatic loss and how to talk about it, and how to feel.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah, love what you're doing. For you, given everything you've been through right now, what's the most challenging part of what you do on a day-to-day basis?
Big John
Continuing to be optimistic when it looks like all I did was put a drop in the ocean. Continuing to understand that I am making a difference. It just don't feel like it. And when I see people do things that are just absolutely counterproductive of not only being a person, but just just being a person of character. And then I say to myself, "Did you not learn anything? And that's why it's always important for me to receive information, to accept it, but then also execute. It's three. It's three parts to it, and a lot of people don't execute. I always want to make sure that I'm executing, and I always want to make sure that I'm giving the right directions when it comes to helping somebody get to where I'm at because I'm not where I want to be, but I ain't where I used to be. And if I can get somebody who's just starting. I can help them get to me and past me, and we can all grow together.
Jennifer Levin
What do you do during those tough moments when you feel like, oh my gosh, am I even making a difference? And you know, it's just a drop in the ocean.
Big John
I think about the ancestors. I just think about what they had to go through. I think about the ones who was, you know, for learning how to read was hung up on trees, and but they still had the Underground Railroad that was beat, babies thrown in the ocean just for alligators to eat because they just felt that that was just a useless person that looks like me, and people families being torn apart just for the economic production of what they were doing. I think about them, and we're still here. I think about them.
Jennifer Levin
How does that help?
Big John
It helps because it gives me the mental and intestinal fortitude to keep pushing and to keep doing what's right. Because even in all that, there was individuals who still wanted to be friends with everybody. They still wanted to forgive. They still wanted to help. That's what keeps me going.
Jennifer Levin
What's something that's the most rewarding part of your work, or what do you love the most about what you do?
Big John
When I see an individual that used to pick up guns and now they picking up tape measures, and that wasn't part of their kids' life, their children's lives. Now they're being respectable and responsible, taxpaying citizen, purchasing homes, and doing what's right in their community. And now they don't have no problems with law enforcement because they're law-abiding citizens. That's the most rewarding part.
Jennifer Levin
That's so great. That's so great. And as part of your program, talk about the vocational part of your program that helps with people make the choice to pick up a tape measure instead of a gun.
Big John
Well, there's no vocation part. It's all the life skills. But what happens is when I figure out that the individual has done what they're supposed to be doing, then we start them in the process of getting into the trades, and it's all life skills. Everything starts from the life skills. Without the life skills, or a person not coming down to the life skills, I won't even recommend them for the trade. They got to come to the life skills. And that's where that's where it starts at
Jennifer Levin
The life skills. Yeah.
Big John
Yeah.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. What is something you would want every listener to understand about traumatic loss and the people that you work with?
Big John
We're human too. We're not used to it. We never get used to it, even though it might appear that way. Even though it might appear that way, because somebody on outside looking in would just think that some people in our community-I'm not saying all-I'm saying some-are savages. When at the end of the day, I know that the person don't love themselves. It's impossible for them to love somebody else. But at the end of the day, traumatic. I mean, grief is grief because even those individuals, when something traumatic happens, tears will come out of their eyes also. And it's just understanding the process and understanding that if I learn how to love myself better, I wouldn't have problems with law enforcement or anything like that, because I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I don't need law enforcement to tell me to get up in the morning and go to work. I don't need law enforcement to tell me I shouldn't be stealing anything or hurting anybody else. I don't need law enforcement for that because I'm not doing it. I'm working. I go to work. I respect everybody. I respect your space. I respect your property. That's natural behavior, no matter what damn community I'm in. But some people don't, and that's why we need law enforcement.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah, you were talking about your relationship class last night-relationship with you know coworkers and boss and and others-and you've been talking all along about relationship with yourself.
Big John
Yes. Absolutely. No doubt. No doubt in my mind. That's that's the thing right there because it all starts with self. Nothing else matters if I don't understand self, and mine is every day. I have an everyday relationship that I got to deal with, and whenever I make the right choice, I can have a better product. Whenever I make the right choice, I can help the right people become better. But if I don't do that, then I'm back where I started from, way back in the early '80s, '90s.
Jennifer Levin
Well, I'm so grateful for you for sharing, you know, your insight and what you've experienced and how you're carrying it forward. I love the execute, the three part stop.
Big John
Oh, execute is so important.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah, and I think you're right. You know, people will take it in and they'll listen. They get distracted and they go right to something else.
Big John
They'll they'll they'll listen to you. I I I'll give you a perfect example. I know for a fact that is not good to drink a can of soda that got 50 grams of sugar. But I know some people would drink it.
Jennifer Levin
Tastes good
Big John
Cause it tastes good. Even though I know it's going to kill me, it tastes good. it tastes good
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. That's that is us being pulled towards you know gratification.
Big John
Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? But that's what-that's things people do. There are people out there who know they shouldn't be drinking and driving, but they will take that sip and drink, and get behind the wheel of a car.
Big John
And in my community, a lot of people say, you know, f the police until they need them. Then when they need them, it's like, man, where y'all was at? What took y'all so long?
Jennifer Levin
Yeah.
Big John
So, you know, words are very powerful. I'm very conscious of my words.
Jennifer Levin
I know you are.
Big John
And when they say reading is fundamental, what I read is fundamental too. I can't be reading things that don't add and multiply. I'm not gonna be reading no books about some things that I know not to be true. I'm just not gonna do that. You know, I don't care how great of a read. You know, when I read Huckleberry Finn, I saw the racism in it, and I knew better. Yeah, I read it because we had to do it for a book report. But when I talked about some of the lines he said in there, that went in one teaching right off. They didn't even address that. They told me I was being uh, what did they? What word did they use? Disruptive.
Jennifer Levin
I actually like disruptive people because they're the ones both with change.
Big John
Absolutely
Jennifer Levin
we need more disruptive people like you
Big John
Absolutely, and don't get me wrong. One of the things that I've learned in having conversations with people is, I've learned how to be right, and I've learned how not to be right right, meaning having a conversation and making sure that this person has an out, not backing up in the corner, we don't have no out. I've learned that, and it's it's made for better conversations. It's made for growth because I never raise my voice. If I have a point, I'll try to give it from a fact pace, and then if I'm right, I'll leave it right there. I don't have to be right, right? Because people who are right, right, they get themselves in a lot of trouble.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah
Big John
And I don't want to be that individual right there. I'm just gonna point it out, and then we're gonna move forward, and then you know see what we can do to make it better.
Jennifer Levin
So my final question to you is: If someone in your community is listening and has just experienced a traumatic loss, how would you want them to do it differently, what advice would you give them?
Big John
For one, I wouldn't give them no advice. What I would do is I would say, for me, I would step back, and whatever the loss is, I would try to my best capabilities find all the things that are good and grab that, but then also get someone that's a little bit stronger than me and walk with me through it. That's what I would do. Just that part right there, because everybody processes traumatic things differently. I mean, me, I have such a reverence for women because the things that y'all go through. I don't care what color you are. I don't believe no man can go through because the the trauma y'all suffer and put it and block it out is absolutely amazing. I don't know how y'all do that, and the only reason I learned about is doing the work that I'm doing, some of the things that that would come out of women's mouths, and they still able to function. Just mind-boggling, and you're sitting there like, damn. And I mean, even when I think about my mother, the stuff she went through, and that's why today, I would just say for me, something traumatic happened. What can I think about positive, and get somebody else that I can talk to that I trust to help with me go through the grief? Like when my dad died, I said I was all right, but some of the individuals who I mentored, they was like, "Nah, man, you ain't all right. They came to my house, and we sat on the porch and we just talked. I didn't know I needed that, but I did. They knew it, and they're younger than me. They knew I needed it, and because my father wasn't shit, he was a useless son of a bitch. But I never disrespected him, and when he went on to go be with the ancestors, it did something to me that I didn't know it was going to do with me because I never had a healthy relationship with him. And those dudes understood that I need. When I said no, I'm good. They showed up anyway. We sat on the portch and just had a great time, and I needed that. Didn't know it, and I told him thank you.
Jennifer Levin
Well, John, thank you so much today for sharing
Big John
Absolutely
Jennifer Levin
everything that you did, and for all of the work you do. And I am so excited that I will get to meet you.
Big John
Oh, absolutely. Can't wait.
Jennifer Levin
All right, Big John Kares. We have information in our show notes about your foundation, so people can look up and get information.
Big John
Well, think about this. The last one I just did is I came up with an idea because when I was in prison, one of the dudes that wasn't never coming home, he told me a journey of 1000 miles starts with one step, and I kept that in my head. Well, finally, through Big John Kares, I created a step program, and Step is an acronym for Seniors to Electrical Program. And when I say seniors, I mean seniors in high school, and I have the authorization from the international all the way down to the local, where I can get 25 to 50 students that's handpicked, and they'll start their senior year in high school, and at night they'll do our first year curriculum in the IBW. Our first year curriculum. When they graduate and they finish our first year curriculum, they go direct entry into the IBW. This has never been done in the nation. I'm the first one to do it.
Jennifer Levin
First of all, congratulations, but tell us what the IBW is. They go directly into the IBW.
Big John
IBW is the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.
Jennifer Levin
All right,
Big John
They're going to local 11, and a person to step into greatness versus stepping into debt at 18 years old. Can you believe that?
Jennifer Levin
That's wonderful.
Big John
So it's all good.
Jennifer Levin
Thank you for sharing. You take care of yourself.
Big John
Have a great day there. Absolutely.
Jennifer Levin
Thank you, Big John, for your honesty, your wisdom, and your willingness to share not only what you have experienced, but how you have chosen to turn those experiences into something that helps others. I am especially grateful for the reminder that grief does not disappear simply because a community has become accustomed to loss—and that healing begins with being willing to acknowledge what has happened, learn how to process it, and walk alongside one another.
I also want to thank you, our listeners, for being here and bearing witness to this conversation. If you are living with traumatic loss, or supporting someone who is, I hope this episode reminds you that you don't have to move through it alone.
If you’d like to learn more about Big John Cares and the work John is doing in his community, be sure to check out the information in our show notes. And if you are looking for guidance and support after a sudden or unexpected death, I invite you to visit www.therapyheals.com to learn more, and be sure to check out our new WeCARE Loss Support Kits, designed to change the way we support people through loss.
Bye for now.