Jennifer Levin
Hi everyone and welcome to Untethered: Healing the pain from a sudden death. I am Dr. Jennifer Levin, and I specialize in traumatic death and helping individuals through the struggles, pain, trauma, and chaos of an unexpected death.
In today’s podcast interview I talk with Ed Santos, a business executive whose life instantly changed with the unexpected death of his daughter Sabrina. Despite being private about his personal life, Ed has contemplated sharing his story in the hope of helping others for quite some time. In this interview talks about his understanding of mental health prior to his daughter’s death, how he coped with his grief right after she died and how it evolved two years later. We also explore his beliefs about grief, therapy and healing after the death of his daughter.
Ed, I am so pleased to have you here today. Let's start off by having you introduce yourself and telling us a little bit about you.
Ed Santos
As you already know, my name is Ed. I live in Orange County, near the beach. I'm an executive at a large company. My hobbies are typical beach activities, cars, motorcycles, I think the typical guy stuff. I think I live a pretty average Southern California Coastal type of lifestyle.
Jennifer Levin
You like to surf, don't you?
Ed Santos
I surf paddle board anytime I'm near the water, it's definitely my place.
Jennifer Levin
That's nice to hear. Well, I am so grateful for you to be here today and your willingness to share your story. I know this is something that you have thought long and hard about doing, and you've given me permission to share that we've worked together since November 2022, so I'm very connected with what you've been going through, and I'm just very, like I said, grateful that you're here today.
Ed Santos
I am, also, I think I don't know what I expect to get out of this, but there have been so many people that have been impactful to me during all of the grief, and you know, the when it happened, the afterwards, and people that have shared their stories that I still reflect back on. So, I’m happy to be here also.
Jennifer Levin
Thank you. So how did you know that you were ready to share your story?
Ed Santos
I still don't. It's such an emotional thing to do. I sat and thought about it, and I got extremely emotional. And I don't know that you're ever really ready to do it. It feels like it's a little therapeutic. It's, Hey, maybe it'll help somebody else. Maybe someone will, it will resonate with other people? I think there's so many pieces of it that I'm just hoping that it benefits somebody.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah, takes a lot of courage.
Ed Santos
It's not easy.
Jennifer Levin
Yes, I know. So, you have a daughter, Sabrina? What would you like us to know about her?
Ed Santos
Maybe I could start in the beginning, because there's probably some really great things and some things that a lot of people have to deal with. Sabrina grew up in two different households, and I think that's the part that maybe a lot of people can relate to. It was also two completely different lifestyles in the two different houses, Sabrina and I were extremely close from a really, really early age. I think she was my best friend her entire life. I think both of us look forward to time spent together. She was smart, kind, highly intellectual, an amazing reader. I think she read more books by the time she was 10 than I've read in my entire life, great with friends, loving, compassionate and quirky at times, sometimes she would just start singing in the middle of dinner. It was entertaining and fun, and she was just a tremendous person.
Jennifer Levin
Now she, you said, she grew up in two households, but she lived primarily with you full time, didn't she?
Ed Santos
Yeah, at around 12, she moved in with me full time. And around 16-ish, 16-17, she moved back in with her mom, I think, during a time when my rules were different than mom's rules and she came back a year and a half later. So yeah, for the most part, I think most of her teenage years were with me, other than the year and a half.
Jennifer Levin
Tell us about what happened the day she died. And first of all, how old was she at that time?
Ed Santos
Sabrina was 22 years and six months to the day. Sabrina died on a Tuesday, and I left on Saturday for a business trip to New York. We communicated the entire trip, text, phone calls, face time. We were pretty connected, like we normally were, and the trip was going well. I think she was doing really well. She had some friends over. My mom and dad came over for dinner one night. They came over for lunch, ironically, the day that she passed. So, everything seemed to be going well. She even told me that what she wanted as a souvenir from New York. So, on Tuesday, it's the last night of the business conference, and there's typically a social event. And we had been texting during the social event, and like I had on most of the trip, I would call her when I got back to the hotel room. I'd get back around10 or 11 and still early in California, and we would just catch up on what happened during the day. When I called her that night, she didn’t answer, and the hospital answered. I was in a bit of a panic when I called her, because I wasn't looking at my texts for the previous hour, and two of my neighbors had texted me that there was an ambulance in front of the house. They thought it was my mother who battles health regularly. And when I called Sabrina, I was expecting her to answer and tell me what was going on with grams. And instead of that, the hospital answered, and they let me know that Sabrina has tried to take her own life, and they're working on her, and they would call me back,
Jennifer Levin
Such a shock to hear it.
Ed Santos
The last thing I was expecting to hear. I can't remember if they called me back, or if I called them back, but I remember they just said we couldn't revive her, and I still didn't really understand what that meant, because when I talked to them the first time, they had said she tried to take her life, but I didn't Think we were in a state of emergency. I thought it was her trying to take her own life, and maybe she was having some mental health challenges. I didn't realize that they were trying to resuscitate her. And I think I struggled to grasp the we weren’t able to save her part. I really didn't know what that meant, because they didn't say she died. And then I finally just asked the question, and they were incredibly compassionate and sensitive, but I just lost it completely. I think I was just paralyzed, and when I got off the phone with them, I called my parents, who had just been to our house a couple hours before that, they were shocked. They wanted to go to the hospital anyways, and they had an opportunity to see her. I struggled with that part. The hospital called me and said, Your parents are here. They want to see her. I said, No. Then I said no, and then I finally said yes. And I don't even know why I was saying No or Yes. I thought it was going to be overly traumatic for them. I think my mother and Sabrina had as close of a relationship as Sabrina and I had. I think there was just a really, really strong bond between the two of them. It was, I felt like my whole day, my whole life had just fallen apart.
Jennifer Levin
Of course. Of course, this was a complete.
Ed Santos
I remember calling some friends, most of them didn't pick up. It was probably about 8:45, nine o'clock California time, midweek, Tuesday night. One of my friends who picked up worked on trying to find me a flight back. I was scheduled to fly back the next day. We had a morning portion of the conference, and I think I was flying at about three or 4pm east coast, and they found me a really early morning flight. I can't even remember what time that flight was, but if I had a guess, it was four or 5am they booked me whatever flight they could find. I packed everything up and I called a cab, and I left the hotel room about 1am I don't know why I wanted to get home so fast. It wasn't going to change anything, but I just wanted to be home. So, I sat in the airport for three or four hours, got on a flight. The seat was somewhere towards the back of the plane, in the middle seat, and I cried for five hours.
Jennifer Levin
I can only imagine what that must have been like for you.
Ed Santos
I didn't say a word to either person next to me. I just cried for five hours, and I flew back to a different airport. My younger brother had picked me up from the airport and drove me back to Orange County Airport so I could pick up my car. And I was so confused, I know I took the long route to get home. I got home and I had friends, I had family in the house, and I just didn't want to be around anybody. I appreciated them being there, but I just went to a different room of the house and just wanted to be by myself.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah, you told me that afterwards, you went into what you called survival mode. Tell me about that.
Ed Santos
Yeah, I think there was so much confusion and disbelief I didn't know how to deal with any of this. It's the last thing I expected. And I think when we work to protect our kids and what we hope for our kids, this doesn't even enter your mind at any point. I remember calling work and letting them know what happened. That was a Wednesday. I took Thursday and Friday off of work and went to work on Monday. I think my way of dealing with it was just not dealing with it, ignoring the tragedy, the best that I could, and not wanting to believe that it was real. I couldn't sleep. I was working 12 or 13 hours a day. When I wasn't working, I was working on a project at home, because I just didn't want to think about it. It would, it was in the center of my mind, but I just didn't want to deal with what had happened. It was like nothing I've ever experienced. I wasn't sleeping at all, and I felt like I was so tired and drained, yet my mind was going a million miles an hour.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah, do you remember what you were thinking about?
Ed Santos
It was, what happened? Why did it happen? Sabrina took her own life, and she had everything to live for, and I really couldn't understand what happened. I struggled with not knowing why she did what she did. She was the one that called 911 and I remember immediately thinking, did she call 911 because she realized she made a mistake and wanted to fix it. Or did she call 911, because she didn't want me to walk into a house with her deceased body?
Jennifer Levin
The weight of those questions, I can only I mean that must have been so difficult to have those hanging over you.
Ed Santos
She left me a note. I talked to the coroner, who said she left you a note, and until we finish our investigation, we can't get it to you. And I, I think I was calling the coroner every two and a half hours to see if they were finished with their investigation. And I think even to date, I've only read the note three or four times. It's hard to read.
Jennifer Levin
It's actually a rarity that people leave notes behind. Most people don't. Do you remember what the note said?
Ed Santos
I remember parts of it. She said, I wish I was stronger and didn't have to do this to you. I love you more than anybody in the world, and that nobody could have done anything to change this. I think looking back on it, Sabrina was depressed. She told me she was depressed. I didn't know what depression was. I thought depression was you're having a bad day, or something isn't going the way you expected it to and you're not as happy as you usually are. Sabrina was in college. She was working on so many things, personally, long term things for her life. And I think in hindsight, I realized that she was reaching out for more help from me, when she would tell me she was depressed, and I would have ignorant answers, like, what are you depressed about? You got everything going on in your life, yeah, and I just wish I understood depression differently, you know, the hamster wheel of the what if's and the, had I done this differently would this be different?
Jennifer Levin
I should have, or I could have, or I would have.
Ed Santos
Yeah, I think during that, would we call it the survival mode? All of that was going through my mind, what could I have done differently to have helped in the situation. Why didn't I see these signs and so much guilt?
Jennifer Levin
Yeah, she had a therapist and a psychiatrist. I mean, you had help for her.
Ed Santos
I think she was getting help, but in all honesty, I think the healthcare system is challenging itself, hard to get appointments. At the time her, she had a change in medication that wasn't agreeing with her and we struggled to get an appointment with the doctor. She had an appointment with the doctor two days after she died to look at her medication and change it. It's yeah, she had the therapist, and she had the psychiatrist for the medication. But I don't think it was as easy as it sounds. I mean, when you have a challenge. You can't just get right into your doctor. And I think it's sometimes it's treated more like a business than it is what I think it should be. And I don't know that, you know, a lot of the people in the healthcare system understand that sometimes it means the difference between living and dying.
Jennifer Levin
I agree. I know you took so much joy in being Sabrina's father. It was, I don't want to use the word job, but it was something you loved so much and through our time together, you've kind of described that you loved being able to fix things for her when she had problems. You loved fixing it.
Ed Santos
Yeah, I don't know that I wanted her to have problems so I could fix them, but I wanted to provide her a pathway to a great life. And so if she had ran out of money for the week, she was working and ran out of money that week, but she wanted to go out with her friends, you know, I would supplement that. If she wanted to take a vacation with her friends, I would supplement that, if she needed help straightening out her room, I would help her with that. We did a lot of long-term planning, financial planning, and I thought that was one of the best gifts I could give to her was to help her map out her life, and I totally missed the things that were right in front of me, and that's when I go back to the depression part. I think I was too busy thinking long range that I missed the short range I and, you know, all the regret.
Jennifer Levin
And unfortunately, death is a non-negotiable, something that, a decision that can't be fixed, as we've talked about, and this has been so difficult. I mean, you've talked about when she had a problem with her car, you could go and fix the tire or whatever, and this is something that can't be fixed. And the challenge is, which we'll talk a little bit about in a minute, is you learning to, I don't like the word fix but be able to work on yourself in this grief.
Ed Santos
Yeah, I I didn't even know what therapy was before grief, and I didn't, to be honest with you, I didn't know what to do after this happened. I had great support from my friends and my family, and grateful for all of that. I think I learned a lot of things in the process. One, I pick wisely with my friends, they're so compassionate and helpful, and also, I thought I could only rely on my oldest friends, because that's who you share most of your deepest things with. And I've realized that there's a lot of my newer friends who have been as helpful.
Jennifer Levin
Good.
Ed Santos
I think grief is hard to understand unless you've been through it, and I would anticipate there's different levels of grief. I don't think I could find a worse circumstance for myself. I lost my only daughter, my best friend, the person that made my whole life complete.
Jennifer Levin
Losing a child is such a traumatic experience, and combined with the way that Sabrina died, makes it so much difficult. What are, you know, you talked about people not understanding. But what are some other struggles that stand out that you've had to face in this journey?
Ed Santos
I think in the first four or five months, I didn't want it to be addressed. As much as I appreciated the sympathy and the compassion. I didn't want to talk about it at all. It was so emotional for me that I just didn't want to talk to anybody about it. And of course, work's a big part of most of our lives, and people want to be helpful, but I just didn't want to talk about it. I remember there being two individuals at work that came to my office. We closed the door, and they shared their personal stories about loss, and at the time, I didn't realize how impactful that was, and I remember going back to see them, I don't know, eight or nine months afterwards, and letting them know how helpful that was. I think part of it is, unless you've experienced such a traumatic loss, you don't really know what it's like, and they knew what it was like, and there's a certain understanding of each other that happens. I don't know that I can find the right words for it, but you get it, and you know what it feels like. So I was really not thankful at the time, but thankful afterwards.
Jennifer Levin
Afterwards yeah, I remember once you shared an experience that really kind of shook you to the core you came back from a business trip, because you do travel, back to the airport where you had parked your car for the same trip that you had taken for Sabrina. Do you remember that?
Ed Santos
I do. It was my first trip after Sabrina died, and the flight home, it just brought back some memories. And I think of the actual night related to, you know, the trip back on the day that she died, but I started crying. I'm on the plane. I started crying. I got to my car, and I can't remember the exact time, but I probably sat my car for 15 or 20 minutes just weeping.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah.
Ed Santos
I think there's a lot of that. The going back to the early parts of the grief, I would cry on the way to work. I would get through the day the best I could, and the minute I got in my car, I would start all over again, and I would cry most of the way home. I don't think most people see that side of grief. I think they see the - well, he seems to be doing pretty good, and everything seems to be progressing, and they don't realize the amount of weight that grief carries.
Jennifer Levin
You're very private in your grief.
Ed Santos
I am, yeah, I like to grieve in private. That's fair.
Jennifer Levin
What are some of the things that you've been able to develop over time to help you cope? I know you kind of have a grief routine at home.
Ed Santos
I do. Every morning, before I go to work, I go into Sabrina's room, and I talk to her. It's usually just a couple of minutes. When I go to bed, I do the same thing. I leave her room at night, I come downstairs, and I kiss her urn, and I go back upstairs. I used to grieve a lot in her room, and now I just grieve all over the place, but I feel I definitely feel most comfortable when there's nobody here, when my wife isn't here, when I don’t have friends over, that's my time to grief. And I've also noted that when it's less frequent, the grief is heavier.
Jennifer Levin
You did join a support group, a traumatic grief support group. What was that like?
Ed Santos
I thought it was good. I thought it was, I'm in a group of people, with a group of people that we could all understand each other, even if the circumstances were different. There was just an underlying connection of understanding how debilitating it is and how sad it is, and all of the struggles that come with it. And I think everybody in the grief group was different age and different circumstances, but there was still a connection of some type. I still think about them. I hope they're all doing well.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah, you make quick and intense connections when you share a bond like that.
Ed Santos
Yeah, it's, there's, there is something pretty valuable about grieving and talking about this with people who truly understand it. I think it's a different type of connection than talking to other people that have high level of sympathy and compassion, but they don't really understand how powerful grief is. Grief for me has been the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with in my life. It doesn't matter if I'm in a great place in the moment, there is a deep, rooted sadness that is always there. I can be smiling and grieving at the same time. It's two separate lives. It's two lives colliding against each other. I don't think the grief ever leaves me. It's just sitting in a place, regardless of what's happening in my life.
Jennifer Levin
Since we've started working together, there's been sometimes when you've shared a really strong connection or a presence that you felt with your daughter?
Ed Santos
Yeah, I think the very first time I felt connected with her, I was on a solo motorcycle trip heading to Northern California, and there was a stretch of highway where I just felt like she was right there with me. And it was weird. I've never been superstitious or had any of that those things, but there's been so many times when it's, there's just weird things. You know, I don't know if you're familiar with all the the numerical signs, but the one, one, ones and all that stuff, I catch them all the time, even today, before our meeting, I got the 1111 I had set my phone down for a couple of hours, picked it up, and I picked it up on the 1111 I don't know what happens after life, but there are certainly times when I know we're still connected.
Jennifer Levin
What's that like?
Ed Santos
Um, sad. I don't think I'm at a place where I reflect back and say, wow, things were so great, and I'm smiling and laughing about all the fun times we had. I think I'm still in a place where I'm struggling with still believing this actually happened. There are microseconds in my life when something is happening in my life and I think, oh, Sabrina is going to love this later. Or oh Saturday this is happening. She'd love this event. And it's as if 10 minutes pass in a micro second.
Jennifer Levin
I have definitely not given up hope that you are going to have moments where you think back and reflect and experience joy grief is always changing and evolving, and we're able to hold feelings of such sadness and pain and good feelings and memories at the same time, and definitely hoping that is something that will continue, or you'll be able to get to at some point.
Ed Santos
I believe you. I think there was a time during the traumatic portion of grief when you would give me advice about what's going to happen that I thought was never going to happen, and it's happened. Therapy has been interesting for me, because prior to this, I've never been in therapy. I didn't even know what therapy was, but I knew when this happened, there was no way that I was going to survive this without some change in my life. And I can't even remember how I found you, but I did, and even in the beginning, I didn't understand how therapy worked, and I don't remember at what point of our therapy You shared something with me that still resonates today. I thought that therapy meant I'm going to see you for an hour each week, and then things were magically going to get better. I didn't know how therapy worked, and I don't remember exactly what you said, but you shared with me, do you want to live a subpar life, an average life, or do you want to live a better than average life? I think that's when I've realized I've got to put the work in, because if I don't, I'm going to be in that below average life. And I didn't know that prior to that, that this was all me. I had to put in all of the work, otherwise, I'm just attending therapy, and it also made me think about what happens next. You know, what type of life do I want to live? And I still struggle with all of that. I mean, grief evolves, but it doesn't mean it's easy.
Jennifer Levin
No. I think one of the words we used is, do you want to be a victim, a survivor or a thriver, and I know it is definitely possible to still live a meaningful life after someone you love dies, but it definitely takes work. And one of our conversations, and you definitely talked about this earlier, was that you now feel a whole different level of compassion for people struggling with mental illness, especially depression, and that may be something that you want to get more involved in in your life?
Ed Santos
Yeah, absolutely. I think I was definitely in that group of people who didn't understand depression at all or mental health. I thought that mental health meant you weren't tough enough to get through whatever you are going through. And I think definitely during different periods of my grief, I have felt that boundary of depression myself, without a doubt, all of this has made me a more compassionate person. And compassion doesn't always mean helping somebody with grief or a similar circumstance, and sometimes it's just about listening with intent and smiling, I mean, just the little pieces to make somebody's day better, offering a different perspective. I wish that I could give back something to people suffering with mental health. I think it's a shame that there's so many people who don't think mental health is real. You can come to my house, and I'll tell you all about mental health and how devastating it is, I think, for parents that have kids that are saying they're depressed or have mental health, if I could go back in time in my own life, I would have said, this is a big deal. I would educate myself on mental health. I would knock down the doors to get to health professionals. There is a huge difference between them having a bad day or moment and mental health depression. I think the biggest tragedy in our society is not understanding it and the shame that comes with it. Yeah, you know it's so interesting, because I think some people probably may not even get help, because there’s such a perspective from society on, you go to a therapist, or you're having mental health issues, and being on the other side of this whole thing, It's made me realize how ignorant those statements are. I don't even know how I can help, other than just offering my own experience and the hindsight in the things that I wish I would have done differently,
Jennifer Levin
I think sharing what you have today has been such tremendous help, such tremendous help. What's next for you?
Ed Santos
Not 100% sure. I think I'm still trying to figure it out. I still avoid most social events. I think one of the symptoms of grief is, at least for me, is I tend to socialize less. I tend to make excuses why I don't do things that I used to think we're so much fun, and then I try to correct that, and it comes back again, and it's that constant battle still of where do I want to be in my life? And I know I want to be on the thriving side of grief, but it's always a work in progress. And I think the other thing that you had taught me about grief that was so powerful for me was when you described it as a circle and that you that the grief will always be there. I don't think true words were ever spoken. The grief will always be there and how you build a bigger circle around that grief.
Jennifer Levin
That's the Louis Tonkin model of Growing Around Grief. Your grief will always be there, but you're going to grow your life around your circle of grief.
Ed Santos
Yeah, I think it also puts so many different things in perspective. You know? I think I I've always valued friendships and relationships, but it's on a deeper level now. I'm thankful for so many different things in my life. I've got a amazing wife and friends and family who I genuinely feel have done everything they could to help me, and I want to be that person for someone else. I don't know how to engage in this whole other world of grief and mental health. It's not my area of expertise, but it's certainly my area of experience. I don't know what's next. I think it's the same advice you gave me early on. It's sometimes day by day or hour by hour, and that's the case for me two and a half years later. It just depends on the moment. Yeah, and I remember you telling me that it's okay,
Jennifer Levin
it's okay. Yeah.
Ed Santos
Grief is so nonlinear. I remember I tried to educate myself on grief andand read things that resonate with me. And there were, there was a clip on Instagram from I don't know, The Oprah Show, of all people. And there was a counselor or health professional, and a lady was talking about how close her mom was, and she had died and she started crying, and the health professional said, don't try to stop yourself, just let it come. And that resonated, because grief comes and you're not stopping it.
Jennifer Levin
Yep, you're not in charge.
Ed Santos
You are not in charge of grief.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. So, one final question, what advice would you give another parent, particularly a father who just started out and had a child who took their life?
Ed Santos
That's a hard one to capture. Your life will never be the same and get all the help you need. It does get better. Keep working on building your life around the grief. It doesn't mean that you love that person less. I think that's an area that I struggle with. I feel most connected to Sabrina when I'm doing my heavy grieving, and I it's taken me a while to realize that being happy doesn't mean I love that person less or feel less sad about what happened, and it's okay to progress. Talk to people, specifically people that have experienced the grief. Find a mental health professional. Every therapy appointment doesn't have to be enlightening. You're going to find, at least for me, I found the pieces that were so impactful and that I still go back to. Grow your life around the grief just is a constant for me, the who do you want to be and what type of life do you want to lead, constantly for me, and you have to put in the work. Nobody will do this for you. All the compassion in the world and sympathy and mental health professionals, you still have to put in the work.
Jennifer Levin
Great. I can't thank you to enough today for being so vulnerable and authentic, sharing your story and sharing Sabrina with us. Thank you.
Ed Santos
Thanks for letting me do it.
Jennifer Levin
I am deeply grateful to Ed for his courage, vulnerability, and willingness to share his emotions and grief in this conversation. While words can never fully capture the depth of anyone’s loss, his story is a powerful reminder of the enduring love between a parent and a child that never dies.
To learn more about hope and guidance after sudden or unexpected death please visit therapyheals.com and sign up for my monthly newsletter Guidance in Grief at www.therapyheals.com. Bye for now.