Jennifer Levin
Hi everyone and welcome to Untethered: Healing the pain from a sudden death. I am Dr. Jennifer Levin, and I specialize in traumatic death and helping individuals through the struggles, pain, trauma, and chaos of an unexpected death. Today I am interviewing Leslee Koritzke who has been my best friend for over 15 years. Some of you who have interacted with me may have even heard me refer to some of her experiences or great one liners over time. Leslee shares with us today what happened when her husband suddenly died over 14 years ago after playing basketball. We talk about what it was like for her to raise her two young children and how she coped with the unexpected legal and financial stressors after her husband’s death. She also describes how her involvement in widow groups, fitness, and pottery helped her develop a long-term relationship with grief. Finally, Leslee reflects on what it has been like to watch her children grow, achieve important milestones without their father, and whether she thought her life would take it’s current shape. Hi, Leslie, thank you so much for being here. Kind of interesting for us to have a formal recording since we talk so much all the time. But can you please introduce yourself to our audience and share a little bit about who you are? And yeah, just tell everybody about you.
Leslee Koritzke
My name is Leslee Koritzke. I am a psychology professor, among other things. I'm a potter. I'm a writer. So many things, and a mom, that always of course comes first, I suppose. And yeah, I just like to enjoy life and laugh at everything I can.
Jennifer Levin
How long were you married? Tell us how old your kids are all of that. Some of those details.
Leslee Koritzke
Okay. So, my husband and I met when we were 15 in high school marching band. He played drums. I played flute and piccolo. And we actually had crushes on other people, but we were best friends. And then one day, we realized we actually had crushes on each other. So we were together since we were 15. Let's see, we moved in together when we were like 22. We got married when we were 23. And we traveled all over the place until we finally had kids when I was 30, my daughter, Alanna, who is now 29. And I was 34 when I had Devin, who is now almost 26. Let's see, we were married for 22 years when he died in July of 2009. So it'll be 15 years ago this July when he died of a heart attack.
Jennifer Levin
Okay. What do you remember about the day that Bob died?
Leslee Koritzke
So it actually started as a very normal day. It was a Sunday. It was July 5th. And he played basketball and volleyball religiously every single week. I always joked that if my kids had been born on a Tuesday, he would have missed their birth because Tuesday was volleyball day. But this was a Sunday, which was basketball day. So it's July 5, it's hot. And he comes home early from basketball and he says he doesn't feel good. And he's gonna go take a shower, and his back hurts. It's like, okay, this is weird. So he goes and takes a shower. And I hear him like, like vomiting in the shower. This is really strange. He comes out of the shower, and he lays on the floor. He's never done this before. Like, this is so weird. So my thinking was that he was having heatstroke. Because it was July, it was hot,he doesn't drink enough water, playing basketball in the sun. So I'm just going to take you to the local hospital. And Alanna was up and she was 14 at the time. She was watching television. Devin was 11 and still asleep. That kid could sleep anytime, anywhere. So I told Alanna I'm just going to take your dad to the hospital. I'm sure it's nothing. I'll see you later. And by the time I pulled into the hospital, he was mostly gone. The only thing he said to me in the car was, Oh fuck, oh fuck, oh fuck, that was all he said as we're driving. And so some people want to put like his huge importance on last words, like no, the relationship we had over 30 years is much more important than those words in the last minute. So he was mostly gone when I got into the parking lot. I screamed for someone, they brought a wheelchair out. We struggled to get him in because he wasn't responsive. They took him in they were working on him for like 45 minutes. And I called it because as a psychology professor, I knew that even if they could get his heart to start up again, his brain would be mostly gone and he wouldn't want that. I didn't want that for my kids. So that was just, I called it. I just told them to stop. But, I tried what I tried to do, I do remember this, like, so we're really super into movies. And so I said movie quotes to him to see if it would, I don't know, make him like, wake up, which of course makes no sense. But at the time, you're not thinking clearly. And I let him go, and the hardest one, I had to make these incredibly difficult phone calls and I asked our friend Cheryl to go pick up the kids so I could have the kids later, and Cheryl took them to her house. And then I had to call my mother in law and tell her what happened, which was more awful than I can describe. She wanted me to hold my phone up to Bob's ear, so she could talk to him and say goodbye. And then, I don't remember how I drove over to Cheryl's house, but I did it. And I just hugged the kids, both of them, and told them that their dad was gone. And I told them that we are going to hold each other up through this. Because I didn't want them to sort of retreat into their own depressions. It didn't exactly work. But I that was my intent was that we're going to hold each other up. They're going to hold me up. I'm going to hold them up. And over the years, we have, but for the first few months, or years, maybe not.
Jennifer Levin
I don't know if you remember, we were actually supposed to get together that afternoon and play majong which is how you and I met. And one of the other women called me and said, are you sitting down? You know, Leslie's husband just died. And I was just like, What? Are you kidding me? And I actually was not a traumatic grief therapist at the time. And was in complete shock like everybody, and yeah, just blown away.
Leslee Koritzke
We had just had our July 4th party on July 3rd and everyone was there. And so everyone was like, but I just saw him. Yeah, like, it's not possible. I just saw him. It's like, yeah, that's how sudden death works. You just saw him here one minute gone the next.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. I also know you were supposed to go on a big trip a few days later. Everything changed for you. So what did your life look like for the next couple months? Couple years, shortly after?
Leslee Koritzke
Oh, so much to tell. We were actually supposed to go to a concert that night to see the Postal Service. So of course, today, I never want to listen to a Postal Service song ever again. Just don't want to hear them. Because it'll remind me. So yeah, we were supposed to go on a big trip to China, Japan and South Korea six days after he died. And so I cancelled the trip. My kids are so used to traveling. They're like but we're still going on the trip, right? It's like, no, I can't wrap my head around that. Although can you imagine if he had died in China, how difficult it would be to get his body back to the US? I can't even imagine that one. So luckily, I had just amazing friends who brought me food and took care of me. And one of the friends had a background as a lawyer. So she took care of some of the trip canceling. I did not get the money back because he did not get trip insurance. Always get trip insurance. And then I had another friend who helped me with some financial stuff. So we figured out three days later that he did not pay the premium on his life insurance. Pay the premium on the life insurance. So things were a bigger disaster financially than I had any idea they would ever be. And it wasn't just because of the trip insurance and the life insurance. But he was involved in what I lovingly call shenanigans, which were financial decisions that were not exactly possibly legal, ethical. I don't know what, I'll never know the details. But I did have cops show up on my doorstep a few weeks after he died looking for him. And all I could do is show them a death, show them a death certificate. Sorry. Good luck on your investigation. And about a week after that, I was served with the first lawsuit of someone he had owed money to. So yeah, I didn't have time to grieve, because I had to deal with lawyers. And I had to make sure the kids were okay. I couldn't sit around and feel sorry for myself, there was no time and energy for that. So even though we know Elisabeth Kubler Ross' stages are total BS, let's just say I jumped straight to anger. And I lived with anger for a good while. And I made a very conscious decision that I was only going to let myself be angry one month for every year we were together, which was 30 years. So that's 30 months, two and a half years, I will let myself be angry. So we know someone who was divorced and stayed angry. Like, forever, she never got over being angry. And I didn't want that anger to turn me into an angry person. I can experience anger without becoming an angry person permanently. So I decided to put a time limit on it. And then I was going to let the anger go. And I did.
Jennifer Levin
How did you deal with the anger? What were those two and a half years of anger like for you,
Leslee Koritzke
Um, anger was awesome, because it gives you energy to get things done. Which means getting lawyers and going through depositions and getting the kids taken care of because my son especially was having big issues, which we'll talk about. It just, I needed all that energy to get all those things done. I couldn't just lay in bed, that wasn't an option. So anger was good for that. And I could, you know, yell at the universe. I joke that he went to his happy place, which was hell, because he had a Halloween business. So I joke that he went to hell so he could redecorate and make it as scary as possible. But when I was angry, I had him in Purgatory. So I owned his soul, I believed in nothing. He believed in nothing. So I owned to soul, I could do whatever I want with it. So I when I was angry, I put him in Purgatory, which is like a really boring doctor's office waiting room with expired magazines and really bad music. So that's where I put him while I was mad. And when I let the anger go, I let him go to hell to redecorate and make it as scary as he wants to. So I just imagined him in these places, and it made me feel better, stupid, but you know, you do what you can do.
Jennifer Levin
Sounds like you also had a good sense of humor that you used to kind of help you cope with all of this.
Leslee Koritzke
Well, I mean, he owned a haunted house business so joking about death was just part of our family. You know, we had dead bodies in the garage. All these props. You know, we joked about death a lot, which is not real death. It's commercial death for Halloween purposes. It's very different, but still joked about it nonetheless. So yeah, so the first lawsuit was resolved in the first year. And then my mother in law passed away 11 months after he did, I think she she had had some cancer, but she essentially lost the will to live once he died. And then lost the cat. So if you think of death that lives in that goes in threes, then I counted the cat. So yeah, that first year was awful. But the first year you know, you're surrounded by that fog, that brain fog and the fog is there to protect you. But I couldn't just sit in the fog when I had so much to do. And of course everyone tells you the first year is the hardest, which is a total lie. And because you have the fog to protect you so the second year is when depression sets in and you realize that this is my life. Wow. And then I was served with another lawsuit. So I had to keep going on that. Actually, there was a third lawsuit that came up a few years later. Hopefully it's only those three and I'll never see another one again. But yeah, so a lot of people get involved in lawsuits to sue someone over their loved one's death, malpractice or something like that. I was getting sued by people who thought he owed them money. Good times. Yeah.
Jennifer Levin
That must have been incredibly stressful. And did it intensify the grief experience or the anger? Or how did you deal with all of that?
Leslee Koritzke
It was pure anger all the time. There was sadness too, like if I heard a song, I would cry. And so we went to a lot of concerts. So every song from, you know, the time we were 15 until the time I was 45. We listened to together, we went to the concerts together, we did everything together. So I couldn't listen to any old music because it would all make me cry. And even the kids, if a song came on the radio that they knew would make me cry, they would jump to turn off the radio because they didn't like to see me cry. I took the kids to a concert, I cried. And the kids hugged me. And then I cried. So from that point, I really could only listen to new music, because I had no association with him with the new music, but mostly, I had a lot of anger. I didn't show the kids too much of that anger because it wasn't directed at the kids. It was directed at him and lawsuits and all that stuff. But I was livid. Anger was my friend. It got me It helped me get through a lot of stuff.
Jennifer Levin
How did you care for the needs of the kids? And what was their grief experience like?
Leslee Koritzke
They were so different. Um, so my one priority in helping getting through everything was to ask myself, What do my kids need? Do that. So I don't know anything about lawyers, none of that stuff. That was all foreign to me, but a parent teacher conference that's in my wheelhouse. I know how to do that. Taking a kid to a doctor, I know how to do that. Feeding my kids. I know how to do that. So I would just ask myself, what do I kids need, and that was what I was going to do. That was really my driving motivation for absolutely everything. So my son was the eleven and about three months... Actually, let me back up a bit. Almost like within a month after his dad died, I had him evaluated for ADHD inattentive type. He'd never been evaluated before, even though I knew there was an issue, but his dad was the same. So his dad just figured out, that's normal. That's what kids are like. So I got him evaluated. So that got us a little bit more leeway on things like homework and testing, which he really needed anyway. About three months after his dad died, he tried to kill himself. He tried to stab himself with a kitchen knife, and my daughter actually wrestled it away from him in the kitchen. And so I worked on getting him therapy, and we started with a therapist, that wasn't really great. Who wasn't going to ask him about his dad. He'll talk when he's ready. No, no, no, we don't have time for this. So I switched him to another therapist that actually was a really great situation. And when he just had all these feelings he didn't know what to do with we would have pillow fights, and I would send him down into the basement to bang on his dad's drumset. So he banged on the drums and he was quite the drummer. So even when he made it to high school, he was the drum captain of the marching band. So the drums like his dad, his dad would have been so proud for him to be, you know, Captain of the drumline. But my daughter did something completely different and in some ways, had me a little more concerned. All she did was throw herself into schoolwork more. She didn't express any emotions. She wasn't crying. There was none of that anger, yelling, screaming thing that her brother was doing. She just dove more into school, which was in her wheelhouse. That was the thing she knew, which was be a good student. And she ended up graduating with a 4.4 GPA and 13 APs. And, of course, at this point, she has a PhD, being good at school was her thing, but she has nightmares to this day. And she still could use a therapist, and my son still talks to a therapist, it is money well spent. And my kids think I should have a therapist. I personally think I'm pretty high functioning, compared to the way I could be. But I probably could use some therapy too. I don't deny that. But yeah, it was my whole goal was to keep them in the same school with the same friends in the same house. I wanted as much stability for them as possible. I didn't, you know, I could have lost the house, financially things were bad, we would have had to move away into a different school district. They could have lost everything they knew. But that was my, what did the kids need? Do that.
Jennifer Levin
So what were some of the things that you did to start to deal with your own grief and take care of yourself?
Leslee Koritzke
Well, I had already started going to a gym. Like when I was 40, I started working out, I never did that before. The benefit of being in marching band is you get out of PE, never good at PE. So I started going to a gym and I made good friends there. If it wasn't for human contact, there really wouldn't be much in it for me. So I started going to the gym. And the trainer I was working with had me run. And I ran. And I always joked the only way you'd get me to run is to tape a bar of chocolate to the back of the person in front of me. But I ran and every time I did a little race, she'd give me chocolate. And I actually ended up doing a half marathon, the year I turned 50, which is pretty amazing for someone who never ran before. But I ran. It's like, am I running towards something? Am I running away from something? I don't know. But I didn't know what to do with all that anxiety and anger, whatever it was. So I ran. And that worked. And I was already doing pottery. So I just did more pottery, I was determined to master a technique I hadn't done before. So I dove into that. And I've been writing my whole life. So I started writing more. So eventually, I wrote a humor book about my students terrible writing, each with a recommended wine or drink pairing called pour a glass, the wine and drink pairing guide for terrible writing. And then as you know, last year, I published the novel The Hidden in the Lost about people who get sucked into a cult, because I can't resist a good podcast or book about a cult. And I like teaching about it too in my psychology classes. So yeah, doing creative things. If someone says let's try an art project, I will always say yes,
Jennifer Levin
I know. You're actually very creative and you put me to shame. I know you did something with a widow's group, and you were very involved with soaring spirits for a while, talk a little bit about that.
Leslee Koritzke
I was so I actually presented at Camp Widow down in San Diego a few times. I also went to the one in Toronto once to present. And I was presenting about how to help teenagers through the grief process since my kids essentially were teenagers through all of that. And then I became the regional leader for Los Angeles because mysteriously they didn't have one. So what the regional leader does is arrange meetings for the widowed people in the area to get together. Since I live in the Pasadena area we can eat in Pasadena, as you know, you can eat at a different restaurant every day and never repeat. There's always a restaurant. And so we ate at a different place twice a month, I led the group for five years, and then I passed it on. But whenever we ate somewhere that people were like, I don't know if I'm gonna like that kind of food. I always said, you've already been through the worst possible thing. How bad can this be? So we ate the food. So yes, we went to the Tibetan restaurant and ate yak meat. And it was delicious. How bad can it be?
Jennifer Levin
One of the things I've always loved about you is you're so willing to try anything one time and you are way more adventurous than me. And just you have such a great positive outlook in life even despite just this horrific thing that's happened to you and Bob and the family. But there is still this amazing sense of adventure. in you and this willingness to still seize life. What do you think, you know, as the majority of my listeners that, you know, grief is long term, it doesn't go away, it evolves and it changes. What do you think are some of the things you've done to develop a long term relationship with your grief?
Leslee Koritzke
I would say that, if something hits you let yourself feel it, it's not going to hurt you. So if a song comes on the radio, that makes me feel sad, or makes me remember something, I let myself feel it, it's not going to hurt me. And I can think of things fondly, because again, I let go of the anger. So if a song comes on the radio by Genesis, which was one of our favorite bands, I'll fondly remember concerts we'd been to, I let myself feel it. And if it makes me sad, that's okay. It's not gonna last forever. And I have a lot of good memories. But you know, I'm saying, no, go on.
Jennifer Levin
But you still celebrate and mark your anniversaries. You buy yourself anniversary gifts talk about that.
Leslee Koritzke
I do. Every time it's my anniversary, I buy myself a gift. Bob was not a great gift giver. He gave me things he wanted me to have, which were not necessarily things I wanted to receive. So I buy myself gifts. On our, what would have been our 25th wedding anniversary, which is the silver anniversary, I bought myself a necklace with a little silver charm that said love. One year, I bought Hamilton tickets. That was awesome. Yeah, I buy myself a gift. But I also did things like with the kids for Father's Day, every year, we did things that he would have loved. So being in Los Angeles, there's so many things to do. I think one of the best was the Museum of Jurassic technology. It's got all these weird things, Bob would have loved that. One year when Alanna had already left for college, I took Devin into the Museum of Death, which is really weird and freaky. His dad would have loved that. And Devin was older. So it wasn't anything scary for him. It's not even open anymore. I think it's closed. But yeah, we would just do things that he loved. We would always go out on Father's Day, go out for breakfast, because he loved a good big breakfast on a Sunday. And we would go do something strange. So yeah, so we did that for his birthday, every year, we would go to BJs, where you could get a pizookie, which is a cookie, and ice cream. And we'd get a triple because there were the three of us. And we'd have them put candles in them. And we'd sing happy birthday to him. Even though he wasn't there, it didn't matter, we'd still sing happy birthday and blow out the candles, make our own wishes, and eat pizookie.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. You've really kept him alive to this day, and developed that relationship and bond with the kids and yourself. And I know he's still very much a part of your life.
Leslee Koritzke
Well, you know, at this point, the kids have had more years without him than with him. So, and I don't know how much of their memories are crystal clear or not. So I often will say when something funny happens, oh, your dad would have laughed so much at that. So they know that he would have found everything funny because he did.
Jennifer Levin
What has it been like to watch them grow? You know, like you said, Alanna has a PhD. She's now married. You know, Devin's become a wonderful young man. I mean, I've been able to watch them grow. What's it been like to watch them grow, to go through these milestones without their dad?
Leslee Koritzke
Bittersweet. I mean, I'm so proud of them, and happy for them and all they've accomplished, but there's always this little thing like in the back of your head that Bob should be here. You know, he should. And Alanna and I talked about it a lot like for her wedding. There's not going to be you know, a father walking her down the aisle. So they decided to walk themselves down the aisle together, which was lovely. There's not going to be a father daughter dance. I kind of wanted a mother daughter dance. But I didn't want us to be the center of attention so that everyone there would go oh, that should have been Bob. Yeah, I didn't want that. But we danced all night together. Anyway. So yeah, there's definitely been moments where yeah, we think you should be here.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. Are you where you thought you would be today? 14 years later?
Leslee Koritzke
Nope. I thought I would be remarried. Turns out dating is not easy. And my life is super full and squeezing another human being into my very full life. another human being who also has a very full life, that's really tricky. And I did briefly have a boyfriend who was so sweet, but just wasn't, you know, a perfect fit. And I like my life. I like that I have a group that I play mahjong with. And I have a very involved with book club, and I have my job, which I enjoy. And I'm still doing pottery and writing working on the next book. I have a very full life and good friends. So I did not think my life would necessarily look like this. I didn't imagine that I would choose to downsize out of the house the kids had grown up in into a smaller house. But it was absolutely the right decision to do once they were grown and gone. Because they imagined bringing their own kids to that house, like for holidays. And nope, not that house. So there's definitely been some changes that I never would have anticipated. But they're not all bad changes. It's not like they're bad changes. My life is good. Surprisingly good. I get to go up to Washington when I want to. I don't have anyone to tell me I can't.
Jennifer Levin
So in closing, what advice you know, a lot of people who listen to this are pretty new out. What advice would you give them about long term grief? And you know, them wondering like, oh, my gosh, does it ever evolve or get better? You know, because the pain is just so, so intense early on.
Leslee Koritzke
It is, I mean, for me, and I can only say for me, year three was when I started climbing out of it. And I started able to sort of look around and figure out what I wanted my life to look like, a little bit where I wanted to go next. It took me until year three. But I also made this very conscious choice to not date when my kids were at home, because I didn't want to introduce any drama into their lives. And a lot of people would ask me, you know, what do you need, it's like, I need my kids to be okay. That was it. Like, I can wait. And I did. That was that was the right choice for me. And I felt was the right choice for my kids, a lot of people make very different choices. People have to do what works for them. But I think a lot of living with grief is be kind to yourself, give yourself a break. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to feel anything. You can let yourself do and feel what you need to in that moment. And some days are going to be hard, some days are going to be easy. And the easier days will become more and more of the days. That doesn't mean you've forgotten your person. It doesn't mean you don't love them anymore. Of course you do. You always will. But it will there will be this little separation where you can look back and see things clearly about what you've been through what your life has been and be able to see a point going forward.
Jennifer Levin
Oh, great. Thank you so much for your time, Leslie, and for your love and support of me and my work. It's always been nice to be able to bounce thoughts off of you. Because I know you've had, you know, lost, you know, Bob, and the kids and it's been such you know, it's been wonderful to watch you grow and the kids and to be a part of your life. So thank you for today.
Leslee Koritzke
Thank you. Love you.
Jennifer Levin
Love you too. All right. It was a unique experience to interview Leslee, and I have been blessed to be part of her story long before Bob’s death. I witnessed the children grieve and grow into amazing wonderful beings and I accompanied Leslee as a friend through her pain, sorrow, and triumphs. As you hear in today’s interview Leslee used her sense of humor to help get her through the hard times, but she remained true and authenic to feeling her emotions. Like many who become single parents over night, her first priority was the needs of her children and had the additional stessors of unexpected circumstances that sometimes do not arise until after a loved has died. Nevertheless Leslee prioritized the health and well-being of her kids and was committed to keeping family traditions and Bob’s memory alive to this day. Her creativity, love for adventure, and continued love for her husband has been a continued theme throughout her life and contributed to her ability to move towards healing. If you are interested in learning more about Leslee, including the two books that she has written or seeing photographs of some of her pottery, please join our Facebook group, Talking about the podcast Unteathered with Dr. Levin. Please join me for my next podcast interview on March 13th featuring Heath Pierinne who experienced the death of multiple family members in a car accident. Heath shares his grief after the death of his sister and brother-in-law, the overwhelming decisions and responsibilities he was suddenly taxed with, and what it is like to become adoptive parents to his sister’s son. To learn more about hope and guidance after sudden or unexpected death please visit therapyheals.com and sign up for my monthly newsletter Guidance in Grief at www.therapyheals.com. Bye for now.
