Jennifer Levin
Hi everyone and welcome to Untethered: Healing the pain from a sudden death. I am Dr. Jennifer Levin, and I specialize in traumatic death and helping individuals through the struggles, pain, trauma, and chaos of an unexpected death. In today’s interview I talk with Dan Baker, whose wife suddenly died on the day he retired from his career in law enforcement. During our interview we explore Dan’s struggle to cope with two major life stressors; the death of a spouse and retirement, at the same time and the impact it had on his identity. We also examine what it was like for him to live with the unanswered questions and uncertainty after his wife died. Finally, Dan shares the experiences he had participating in spousal grief group to help him cope and process his wife’s death. And how afterwards he developed a strong bond and intimate friendships with a some of the members that he now considers to be part of his family. Hi, Dan, and thank you so much for agreeing to spend time with me today for our podcast interview. And I'd like to start off by asking you to introduce yourself.
Dan Baker
Okay, well, I'm Dan, obviously since that's what you called me. I'm a grandfather of seven grandchildren and retired as you know. I was married to Cathy for approximately 27 years when she died. I was a prosecutor for most of my career, and the last few years I was a chief deputy for an oversight agency of a law enforcement agency.
Jennifer Levin
Okay. Hobbies, interests, things outside of work?
Dan Baker
Well, I'm one of those people that they make fun of all the time on TV shows, you know, never go close to the guys who play with trains. Because I have trains, and notwithstanding that I've managed to meet Cathy, and maintain a long term relationship with and I think it was healthy. And lived kind of a normal life in the courtroom and in the public arena. So everything you've heard about people that like trains don't believe it all.
Jennifer Levin
Okay. How long did you work for? I think you recently retired?
Dan Baker
I did. I retired in 2020. So three years ago, I've gone back on a consulting basis to the local prosecutor's office periodically for actually, mostly to keep myself occupied. I don't know, I was there since 93. It was a second career for me. I had been in the railroad for a number of years and went to law school in my late 30s, early 40s. And then went to the prosecutor's office,
Jennifer Levin
Railroad connection to trains. I just made that.
Dan Baker
Oh, you did? Yeah. That happens.
Jennifer Levin
Okay. So, um, tell us a little bit about retirement or kind of what happened when you actually ended work?
Dan Baker
Well, I had, you know, the last year of work was COVID. So it was a very difficult year, not just personally, but also professionally. Most of my staff, I had a staff of approximately 35 to 40 people, professionals, and we were working remotely. And I was the only one in the office, literally. And it was weird. And one of the things that I had oversight over was the skilled nursing facilities in Los Angeles County and how they were handling the COVID crisis, in fact this is when we knew nothing about it. You know, we didn't know who would die who wouldn't, just lot of things we didn't know. So anyway, I finally decided to retire. A couple years overdue and had set a date. And we were working on, I wasn't, but Cathy and my friends at work were behind my back working on my retirement party. And my last day was on February 8, 2020. And when I came home from work that day I found Cathy dead on the loveseat in our den. So that's, that's how my retirement went/started.
Jennifer Levin
That is unimaginable. I mean, not only for anybody who comes home, and finds somebody they love, suddenly no longer living. But the fact that that was your last day of work. I can't even imagine what went through your mind.
Dan Baker
Well, a lot of things. And, you know, this is particularly difficult because I just seen her that morning. I knew it was the last day and I was winding a lot of things up. I had to study, I had to post on our website and again, it was a five year analysis of some issues with the department so I wasn't really I didn't go to work early that day. I went to work quite late for me and I went and saw Cathy before like I did around 10 o'clock or so in the more I don't know what time anyway, in the morning and she was alive, she was well, and we talked a little bit. But, you know, we were socially distancing because it was COVID. She had been vaccinated, she did volunteer work for Planned Parenthood, so was eligible for vaccination. I wasn't yet eligible for vaccination, because I wasn't working in a medical position. So we were kind of keeping our distance from one another. And I remember thinking, and I don't know if this is my memory now, or, but I do recall thinking, you know, for 27 years, you know, we hugged and kissed and say goodbye when we left. But that day, we didn't. I just saw her and we just smiled at each other. I said, See you later and walked out the door. That was the last time.
Jennifer Levin
Retirement and the death of a spouse are probably two of the greatest life stressors that someone can face for very different reasons. Obviously, the death of a spouse and the sudden death of a spouse is devastating and traumatic and retirement, you know, something you think is positive, but also comes with a lot of stress. How did you even begin to cope with grief early on?
Dan Baker
Well, I'm not sure I remember telling you I coped. I was not doing very well at all. You know, I was a mess. I literally walked maybe, I don't know, 15 20,000 steps a day, inside my house just walking back and forth. I couldn't think I couldn't quite grasp what was going on. Yeah, I'm not sure I coped very well at all. You know, especially under the circumstances, it was just... Yeah, I don't think I coped. I just I survived. My kids stayed with me. I have three grown children, and they took turns coming and staying with me. Which helped. Not so much because they were a comfort, because, you know, what kind of comfort could they give me with, you know, Cathy having died. But they kept me from, I knew I couldn't act crazy in front of my kids. So it kind of kept me not doing crazy things. Not, I think, not that I don't know what I would have done anyway. I didn't know what to do. So I paced I guess.
Jennifer Levin
You paced. Yeah. Sounds like the kids kind of almost serve just like a containment for you.
Dan Baker
Pretty much. Yeah.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. You mentioned that we have worked together. And I remember that there were so many unknown circumstances. Regarding your wife's death in the beginning. What was that like for you?
Dan Baker
Well, it was hard. And I don't know. Sometimes I think and just thinking lately, I was wondering if that was a good thing. But probably not. But it sure took the focus off of the magnitude of the loss in some ways. Because I did not know how, how she died, how it came to be. You know, when I found her, she seemed to be okay. In terms of, you know, her body was intact. She's just laying there, like, she was relaxing, and she had been having some Dizzy issues, and she'd had some not life threatening health issues, but she'd had issues where she was falling and feeling faint. So I thought initially, that maybe she just passed out. And I don't know what I thought, but somehow I thought she died of natural causes. And after my wife, or my daughter came down, when I called her after I called the paramedics. I was just sitting in the garage waiting for them to basically declare her dead and one of the policemen came and said she'd been stabbed to death. So, which took me by surprise. I mean, it was total shock because I there was no blood and as a prosecutor, I've done, I've been let alone been involved in over 100 and some cases in which I've been actually at the homicide scene. And I know what a homicide scene It looks like and it did not look like a homicide scene. And it did not look like a stabbing particularly to the head where there's normally a great deal of blood loss, because there just wasn't any visible. So that shocked me. And so then, you know, the homicide detectives came. And because of my work, I knew most of them actually, I knew, with the exception of the local police department, I knew most of the people that arrived, most people involved in investigation. I mean, I had worked with them before. So then, after a few days of thinking, you know, it was probably a homicide. You know, they let me know that they did not think it was a homicide, and they were now looking more at a suicide. And which even shocked me more. Because you know, the thoughts that were going through my head were like, gee, if I had gone over and hugged her and kissed her that morning, would she have not had those feelings that led her to, you know, if she did kill herself, kill herself, or whatever. So those were all the kinds of thoughts going through my head. Plus the fact that, as the husband, I knew I was the primary suspect that if it was, in fact, a stabbing. So just all those things all together all at once just piling up and just made it particularly difficult. The other thing, you know, and the police do not treat you well, in investigations, and I am thankful for my experience, I can't imagine if someone who did not have my experience went through that, because I know, I knew their procedures, I knew their policies, I knew their practices. I knew why they were doing everything they did, including the way they talked to me the way they talked to my family members the way just the way they went about doing things. And the police are not your friends, they're not pleasant. And when I say not your friends, I mean, they're not friends who are there to give you support and comfort. They're there to find out what happened. And that's what they really care about. But they also only care about it, if it's within certain constraints. They care about if it's a homicide, if there has been a crime committed, if there is no crime, they're no longer interested. So the police, once they decided it was not a homicide, pretty much quickly lost interest in how she died. But that didn't help me. By the way, she died of a subarachnoid hemorrhage and a hemorrhage in the brain. The the tissue around the outer part of her brain had been punctured. One puncture wound, a very small one, but it had just caused her to bleed in her cranial cavity. And that's what she died from. So once the police lost the interest, you know, I of course wanted to know if it was suicide, if it was homicide what it was. And like I said, once they decided it wasn't homicide, their investigation was done. So I went so far as we were going to cremate her and I did not, instead I had her body preserved and had a burial in the event that we might want to exhume her. And I also hired a pathologist from our local hospital here in the county to to go over her autopsy report to see if that would be worthwhile or what could be said about the way she died. And we really don't have any answers. Other than, you know, 100% is most likely an accident. Just very freak accident. She that very morning had ordered all kinds of stuff. She was a avid shopper, but from drugs to cat toys to all kinds of things her calendar was full. She'd been planning my retirement party, which was to take place the following Thursday. So there are no indications of suicide at all. So, but those are anyway, I spoke way too much. Those are the things that were all going through my head in the early stages, and I don't know if I also mentioned to you that she kept her maiden name when we got married because she had her professional career aside from my own. So the police did not list me as a next of kin. The next day I had to go down to the mortuary and the coroner's office and identify her body in order to be classified as her husband, and have all of the notifications sent to me and the property returned to me. And that was during COVID. So getting inside. I mean, just it was just like I said, I didn't I don't know, I don't even know now, how or what I did. But anyway, so those are the kinds of things that were going on.
Jennifer Levin
Wow, I mean, so many things going through my mind just listening to you talk about that. Um, number one, I mean, with your experience, first of all, thank you for sharing all of that. But with your experience, you're very savvy with the system. And I'm curious, do you think your experience helped you, or made it harder for you?
Dan Baker
Well in some ways that helped me and I'll, you know, trying to be positive, I'll just stay with that. It helped me in that I did not take it personally. I was able to not take so personally what was going on. So, you know, the police would not share information with me, they would not let me see her body when they remove the body from our house, they would not, you know, a lot of things that were happening. But I knew why they were happening. So that I did not take personally. Things that did, that made it more difficult, were I knew that, you know, there's some office somewhere, where there's a bunch of police officers sitting around talking about me as a suspect, as someone who might be responsible, and that everything I did was being watched, and and everything I did was being recorded. You know, they took her phone, they took her computer, when I asked for them back, you know, I was I was aware that they had copies of that, I knew that they had everything about our personal life that anyone could ever possibly hope to have because they had all this information. So that wasn't very comfortable. You know, at all. But you know, that sense of people watching you in that sense, was the downside of it.
Jennifer Levin
yeah, we started off talking about living with the unknown. And as you were, you know, going through all the possible causes of what happened, the emotional roller coaster that you must have been on, you know, is just unbelievable. And it's interesting to hear you say, you know, when this section of the police is done with you, you know, they're done. But the emotions in your mind aren't done, the thoughts in your mind, you're left with those. It's no longer a homicide, that's done, but you're still dealing with the aftermath of all of that, you're still processing all of that. You know, is it a suicide? You're still dealing with all of that. Do you want to say anything more about what that emotional roller coaster was like for you?
Dan Baker
Well, I can, I don't know that I can be consistent in what I say. Because in many ways, that roller coaster still goes on. I mean, sure. I mean, we had the forensic pathologist look at the autopsy report and give me his opinion. I had talked to a psychiatrist, her psychiatrist about what was going on with her. Because like I said, she had significant health issues that affected her quality of life, but not necessarily the duration of her life. But even still, to this day, there are times when I wonder, you know, the question, the question just isn't answered. So it always leaves that room, you know, at two o'clock in the morning, three o'clock in the morning, or at the most random moment, you know, I can just hear someone talking about something or whatever, that just raises the specter. I wonder, I wonder if I wonder what happened. And I still do think a lot, particularly since I wasn't there, and I probably could have been, you know, what really happened those last moments? And, you know, I have some friends that I talked to, and we were just talking we had dinner Monday night, and we were talking about reframing our spouses death, you know, and we were talking about, well, anyway, just I don't even know where I was going with that, other than to say what could I have done? What could have my presence done? I, you know, probably nothing. But it still comes up. It still comes up.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. You find ways to live with the uncertainty, but I'm hearing you say the presence of uncertainty still does exist after all this time?
Dan Baker
Well, very much so.
Jennifer Levin
Speaking of your friends, I know as part of your healing, that you did attend a grief support group. Can you share what that was like for you?
Dan Baker
Well, sure, I mean, at first, well I'll just say this, I attended the grief support group. And I had decided before I made a decision whether I was going to stay or leave that group, I would at least go to three meetings. So I stuck it out for three. And it turned out to be a real lifesaver for me. I'd been in probably, I don't know. I, the only grief the only support group I'd ever been in before was Al Anon dealing with some issues with some of my children, but which really weren't as severe. So this was my real only experience in a support group. This group was good for me, in one sense, in that everyone in the group had experienced a traumatic loss. They were like me, they found their spouse either died in their presence, or they were they found their spouse dead unexpectedly in their home. You know, so we were kindred spirits, so to speak in that way.
Jennifer Levin
What was the group like? Male, Female, age range?
Dan Baker
Well, it was almost, I don't want to say exclusively female, but the consistent members there were almost all women. There were I would say. I mean, I can remember. I mean, the group changed periodically, because it was an open group. So people would come and go. So at least the formal group did I attended. So I think there may have been over the course of that 3 men, and other than myself, and probably about 15, to about 15 or so women over the course of the time it, you know that came and go some for just once or twice, and some for longer.
Jennifer Levin
Was that uncomfortable being the minority, you know, the males?
Dan Baker
Well, it was different. I'll just say that. I, I don't know if I used to think it was uncomfortable or not, I'd just say it was different. There were some, some issues, I felt a little self conscious. Because, you know, I'm 70 years old people react differently when they're especially opposite gender people react differently when men are there or women are there and whatever, they react differently to one another. And so there was some discomfort, but the other feelings were just so overwhelming. That other than giving it a thought, at least as I look back at it now. I don't recall there being you know, an overwhelming sense of discomfort or I wouldn't, I wouldn't have gone back you know, which I did.
Jennifer Levin
You said the other feelings were so overwhelming. What are you referring to?
Dan Baker
Well the feelings of grief and the feelings of loss of feelings of uncertainty? The lack of identity I mean, the you know, I mean to me in my life, I mean, I never had really close intimate friends because of the type of work I did. It was just really wasn't that possible. Because you can't talk your work into your normal conversation. No, people are I don't want to hear that. So yeah, it was the way I was seeing through the eyes of my peers, other professionals and Cathy so I lost the mirror of my peers and other professionals you know which you know, the judges the other lawyers I dealt with, the law enforcement people I dealt with and Cathy on intimate scale was the only person that really knew what I was like, you know. All that was gone. So I, I think maybe one of the main advantages to going to the group was being or getting a sense of self. And early in group, of course you want to present yourself as best as possible. I tell you, for example, earlier early on, I could not say out loud, that I had been a suspect. That was just, I couldn't say that out loud. But everyone there had lost their spouse under very traumatic and sudden circumstances. And I heard them talk about how they were treated as suspects and how they were interviewed by the police, and things like that, you know. It just eased my, I don't want to say my mind, it just made it easier for me. Because just realizing that, you know, that wasn't a character flaw of me, that was just the way the world works. It's just the way it was. All these people went through that. So that was very, you know, easing. But anyway, I may be talking too much. But that's, that's what initially out of the group I got, was the ability to to see myself through the eyes of others. And also look by seeing, well, I just saw my a lot of myself reflected in what the others were saying. And it was, in most cases proved valuable to me. Like every group, there were some people there that I didn't identify with too much and clearly had issues that nfortunately for them far exceeded their grief issues. But on the whole, it was good for me. I will say I think I was probably, almost everyone in that group, unfortunately, for them was young enough to be my child. I'm trying to think if there was, with the one male exception who came very briefly, everyone there, everyone in the group could have been my child or a couple of my grandchildren.
Jennifer Levin
I'm so glad you're talking about this, and how, you know, you were male, and there weren't as many males and that you were older, and people were younger, and that there were some people that you didn't click with, but that you were still able to get something out of the experience. And I do know, it was a very meaningful experience for you. Because I think, you know, a grief group can be so powerful in our healing experience. And I just think you described it so eloquently what you did benefit from, I also know that you developed a strong bond with a core group of some of the members from your first group, and that you've really integrated them into your life. And I almost want to say a unique way, and they've become like family. Do you want to talk about that?
Dan Baker
I will say that some of the people I met through the grief group are probably the only outside of, you know, I was married once before, as you know, my wife was the only intimate relationships I've had in my life in which I feel very, I don't want to say comfortable, but I feel safe just sharing who I really am and what I'm really about with. And I have integrated them. But it's been incredible. And, you know, I really, and to show how one person can make a difference, there's one person in the group, who actually, I think it was only her second time there, all of us had been doing this, you know, the remainder of the people in the small group, you know, chatting and talking, and once in a while, you know, exchanging looks on our zoom meeting, and one of them just said, Do you guys ever get together Would you ever consider like getting together in person and for breakfast or meeting or something like that, and none of us ever had. So immediately, she put it together, we met. And so that small group of us that, you know, there were initially seven of us, um, just a few more came a few more or less, but we've formed a really solid core six people that are in each other's lives every day, in some way. You know, we get together at least once a week for dinner, often, you know, we go places we took a cruise together. At is just, it helps, you know, at night, or whenever, when you're really feeling bad. You know, to have someone that you know, you can reach out to, and I'll say this, I've not yet reached out to any of them in the middle of the night, because I know they value their sleep. But it's not that i is, but I know I could if I needed to just knowing that they're there if I if I need them. And I And we've talked about this a lot, I know the feeling is mutual, just knowing that they're there that support, that love is there. It's just I it's just made a huge difference. And, and my life, I don't know where I would be, or how things would have gone. And, you know, I bonded with these people. And, you know, my biggest fear is, is you know, they're all young girl, I'll go get married and, you know, find some other spouse and I'll be one of those senior citizens in the assisted living facilities, begging with high school kids to come and chat with me. You just for a company, but I don't think that's going to happen. I've told him that too. So they're always Elaine my concerns. But no, they've so yeah, they are a major, major part of major part of my life, the group?
Jennifer Levin
Well, I know you've taken a lot of risks and become vulnerable, and it's really paid off for you. So we've talked before about grief being long term. How would you characterize or describe your grief today in the beginning of 2024?
Dan Baker
Well, you know okay, it's, as you know, it's like eight days from three years right now. And I was just I just went to breakfast with one of my friends who had a group this morning and grief is long term, and the grief is strong and sometimes stronger than it was in the immediate aftermath. And then it has been in other times the so I hope that's not discouraging, and, and because it's encouraging in one way and my ability to deal with it has changed a lot. I it doesn't become overwhelming. It's not debilitating. So I don't mean that my grief is debilitating when I say it's stronger. I just mean that. I just miss capping a lot. Yeah.
Jennifer Levin
I love you to share it. I've been very honored to witness it and getting to know you. Yeah. What advice would you You give to somebody else.
Dan Baker
Like I could give advice to anybody.
Jennifer Levin
Yes, you could you can have some amazing advice. Oh,
Dan Baker
I don't know about that.
Jennifer Levin
What advice would you give to somebody else who's experienced stay setting or unexpected death at a time that actually coincides with retirement, I mean, both of those at the same time, such interaction that is so powerful
Dan Baker
Well, I feel exceedingly unqualified to give any type of advice, but I will say, what helped me. And what still helps me is one just maintaining a core group of people, whoever they are, wherever you find him that you can trust and that you can feel safe with. I just needed to find a safe place. It just just had to have one. And so that would be one piece of advice. Easier said than done, I guess. And the other thing that I did, I did that. I don't know if I did if I'm responsible for this or not. But I reached out a lot to people and I didn't withdraw. I reached out to people I initiated contacts with people that I hadn't had contact with some long time. Some of them felt very uncomfortable with me doing that. And those came to nothing which is okay others did not. But I would say fine, just finding safe people is most was the most important thing I did. And just like I said, I'm gonna call up I just feel so uncomfortable doing this finding you finding counseling. You know, I think I told you I went to four counselors, well, simultaneously you including the shishi, who want who happen to be new. You know, that New Age stuff that want to play people that do gongs and play music before they're
Jennifer Levin
not play gongs and music, and not that I think that there's anything wrong with that. I think that can be incredibly powerful. But that's
Dan Baker
in my head. I
Jennifer Levin
heard that. Okay. Not how I would characterize myself. No, I
Dan Baker
was just Okay, everyone, I was being facetious. But I have told you that you did seem a little new age for me at times, but but the real important thing early on, was finding techniques to deal with, with the grief, how the deal with the coping to slow, slow things down to where I could actually do thanks. I mean, it was just so debilitating. And I was just so hopelessly lost in terms of, you know, what to do. And, as you know, we've talked about, or maybe we didn't, you know, I didn't really feel much like living, you know, there was no way I was going to commit suicide. I never thought of taking my own life. But I can honestly say, I really didn't give a shit. You know, one way or the other, it just really didn't matter to me. Which just means a lot of other things in your life. Go on, you might have three children and seven grandchildren. So, you know, I needed to be something for them as well. So, you know, finding people I felt safe with including no therapy to the extent I could afford it and attended. I think were the things that stopped the spiral of I don't know, people call it going over the edge or up voted in the abyss who down the radical or whatever, but yeah, just hanging on to people and relationships. Really had been the big, big thing for me that have helped. And trust me, I did not like doing that. Like I told you, I had no intimate friends before Kathy died other than Kathy, I mean, we had friends that we so socialized with and we saw, but there is no one that I would You know, share my innermost thoughts, you know, or innermost feelings with other than Katherine. They just weren't. And so I don't know if that's very good advice.
Jennifer Levin
I think it's amazing advice. Dan, thank you so much for your vulnerability, your honesty today and sharing truly from your heart. so appreciative of your time, wisdom, and your your heart.
Dan Baker
Well, you're welcome. Thank you for your help.
Jennifer Levin
Just like all of my podcast participants, Dan’s experiences were powerful and unqiue. With an extensive background in law enforcement, Dan provided us with valueable insight about what happens during the investigative process. He also invited us into to the difficult thoughts and emotions that he struggled with and continues to revisit three years after his wife’s death. I am so grateful he shared his perspective on the ins and outs of spousal grief support groups and the last relationships that can develop. The love Dan continues to have for his wife Cathy remains present and palable. I want to thank him so much for his time and willingness to share his story with us today. If you would like to reach out to Dan please join our facebook group – talking about the podcast Unteathered with Dr Levin. Please join me for my next podcast interview on Feburary 28th when I interview Leslee Koritzke whose husband died suddlenly 14 years ago. Leslee shares what it was like raise her young children and how she coped with the unexpected legal and financial stressors she faced after her husband’s death. We also talk about the things she has implemented in her life to help her develop a long term relationship with grief. To learn more about hope and guidance after sudden or unexpected death please visit therapyheals.com and sign up for my monthly newsletter Guidance in Grief at www.therapyheals.com. Bye for now.