Jennifer Levin
Hi everyone and welcome to Untethered: Healing the Pain from a Sudden Death. I am Dr. Jennifer Levin, and I specialize in traumatic death and helping individuals through the struggles, pain, trauma, and chaos of an unexpected death. In today’s podcast I interview Cindy and Merle Meyers who reflect on their dating experiences and invite us to into their marriage after Cindy’s first husband, Dan was killed coming home from work one night. When a new couple begins a romantic relationship after one of the partner’s has experienced the death of a loved one, it is not just a relationship of two. Circumstances depending, the presence, and in many cases the family, of the previous partner who died is a very real part of the relationship with needs of their own that must be honored and addressed. Today’s interview explores Cindy’s early coping with traumatic grief after Dan died, and her initial dating experiences with Merle. We then delve into the marid of issues the couple had to face throughout their marriage including communication, family dynamics, coping mechanisms.
Hi Merle and Cindy, thank you so much for joining us today. So why don't you start off and just share a little bit about yourself?
Cindy, why don't you go first?
Cindy
Okay, um, well, we've been married for a long time, we have two adult children, 11 grandchildren, we come from very different backgrounds. I was raised in a family with three sisters, no brothers and two parents. My mom was a stay at home mom that had some emotional challenges. And my dad was an engineer at Boeing. So pretty traditional, you know, like, middle of the road sort of thing.
Jennifer Levin
What are some things that you like to do? Just tell us a little bit about yourself personally.
Cindy
I was in the hiking club. In school, I did a lot, a lot of music. My mom had been a music major. And I followed my parents to the University of Washington, primarily because neither of my sisters went there. So I was not going to be characterized as somebody else. Like I had in high school, that was a little rough. Um, and so lots of music, lots of sports, lots of community involvement, a lot of volunteering. And I worked as an accountant for many, many years, did taxes and stuff. It wasn't the numbers, it was easy for me to do the numbers, but it was the people. I really enjoyed meeting the clients and solving the problems.
Jennifer Levin
So you're a people person?
Cindy
I am. And I also like an answer to my questions. So I thrived on things like math where there was an answer, rather than theoretical things where, you know, art was not my thing. But I appreciate great art. I just am not good at creating it. So yeah, a real community kind of person.
Jennifer Levin
Okay. And Merle, what about you?
Merle
I came from quite a different background from Cindy, I was an only child raised by a single mom. And there was a lot of moving around and growing up. The economy was pretty tough in the 60s and 70s. So we did kind of move around and follow the work, that kind of thing. So yeah, it was just completely different. And when I met Cindy, polar opposites, solid family, and, you know, very, very well grounded in each other. And, yeah, I like to meet people where they're at. And so it was a great experience, getting to know them and then their life.
What are some of the things that you like to do these days?
So I have retired from Boeing. After 31 years, I was Quality Manager for 15 years. And Cindy and I traditionally volunteer, we've been married 41 years and change now. But we volunteered even when we had little kids in the house. Our big one, at first was a special offender center in Monroe. At the prison. So at the prison, we dealt with special offenders like homicide, pedophiles, they were all there. And we were building bridges with these folks. And we really enjoyed building those relationships, but then the prison system in order to make money, they would move the prisoners. Oh, I'm going to Walla Walla next week. And I think that's how they made a lot of their money. So we would start these relationships, and then all of a sudden, they'd be gone. And we decided we don't want to do letter campaigns and keep starting over. And then I took a transfer from Boeing to Texas. We were there for four years. And then we did community outreach there. Went to England for three years on assignment. And we came back we were sitting at church, where are we going to volunteer? Hospice send out an email blast, we need volunteers. So we looked at each other. Let's give this a whirl. And we went through the training, fantastic training. And we started on the end of life side and then I went into camp air and it was a big buddy grief camp for kiddos. And then it was the bereavement side that sucked me in like a tractor beam. Then Providence as a volunteer had me facilitating groups supporting with one on ones I was doing, I think three groups a month after work, I go to Providence and lead a group
Cindy
And by this time he'd lost his mom, his dad and his stepdad figure he never married his mom, but three significant parents in a short space of time.
Jennifer Levin
You are both community people, volunteers. I can just tell you're very big people...people, people.
Cindy
Yeah
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. So today, we are actually going to talk about how sudden or unexpected death impacts new relationships and marriage. And Merle, you just said that the two of you had been married for over 40 years and change, to use your expression. And I know that shortly before you got married, Cindy, your husband, Dan, died unexpectedly. And I really want to thank you both for agreeing today to take a trip down a painful memory lane and share with us your early experiences in your relationship. And how Dan's presence and the grief has remained part of your marriage throughout the years, I work with a lot of clients who after you know some of their healing, start to get into a new relationship, who, you know, after a spouse or a partner has died. And so I think they're gonna find this really interesting today, to hear your perspective of what it was like for you to start dating Cindy, and Merle, what it was like for you to kind of have Dan's presence in that relationship. So I look forward to our discussion. Cindy, describe for us what happened when Dan did die. What was it about 42 years ago now?
Cindy
43 yeah, um, he didn't come home from work. And he was on the swing shift. So he got off at should have been home by or so and didn't show up. And I had heard sirens and stuff, but didn't really think anything about that. But then when he didn't show up, I thought, Oh, he's, he had been trained as a mechanic. And he was very good. And I thought he was helping somebody at the Boeing parking lot or something. And then I thought, about 10 minutes later, he would have called me even though we didn't have cell phones at that time, he would have found a way to call me and let me know what happened. And he hadn't called. So then I started getting concerned and I had my hand on the door to leave, and I just didn't leave. And I thought oh, if I go and he comes back, then I'm gonna miss him, and he won't know where I am. So I thought I better write a note, you know, and then I better check with 911. Well, I called 911. And they were amazing. And they kept me on the phone, not the first time, but they said they'd call me back. And then I called them like, 10 minutes later and said, I haven't heard back. And they kept me on the phone and passed me around to a couple of people saying, Oh, we're going to check this. Oh, you know what, there's another listing, we're going to check that and see, nope, we don't have any accidents. And they kept me on there until the coroner could finish his investigation on the site, and then come back to my place. So he had gone in the neighbor's driveway, and I saw the coroner's van coming. And I thought, oh, gosh, you know, Dan's hurt somebody, and he's being questioned, and whatever. So I didn't ever think that it was him. But when the coroner came in, asked if I had somebody else to call, so he called my sister and her husband to have them coming over. And then he takes out Dan's driver's license from his pocket. And then I figured out, uh-oh, you know, I know what this is. And I immediately have this reaction that is not yours. Why do you have that, but I didn't say that. But that's how I felt. And I remember that really powerful. Like, give me that it is not yours. So. So he told me what had happened, and told me that they had kept me at home because they didn't want me to come upon the accident. He had been hit on the Mukilteo Speedway, head on by a truck, and it was a hit and run. So the bumper of the truck was left at the scene of the accident. But he was he had been in the ditch and they just did not want me coming on that scene. So they asked if I had any questions. And I just got up and started folding laundry and I said, I'm sorry, I can't sit still. He goes, that's fine, whatever. So he waited till my sister got there. And then I went and stayed at my parents house, but they were out of town. So we called where my parents were vacationing and told the police what their car looked like, and they found my parents and had my parents come back. And that's what the first 12 or so hours was like.
Jennifer Levin
Wow. What do you remember? Oh, first of all, thank you for sharing that. I'm sure even though 43 years later that's not gotta be an easy story.
Cindy
Now, it makes me a little restless to tell it but I'm fine.
Jennifer Levin
Thank you for sharing that. What do you remember about your grief early on?
Cindy
Oh, nothing had a place. I didn't handle it well. I was very restless. I didn't sleep much. I had just that day seen Dan. And we were on opposite schedules, kind of because we were both working and both going to school. But I had a number 10 out of 10 counseling session for depression, which they determined was just a learned behavior from my mom's mental illness. And they had kind of released me, you know, and Dan had gone to that appointment to find out what the ongoing instructions would be, and so forth. So I'd seen him that afternoon. And then we had talked about Mount St. Helens, because that was the day that the volcano became active. So we were on the phone several times, it wasn't the day that it exploded, but it was the day that the volcano was active. So we had talked, you know, several times, and then just to have all of that expectation just gone, like I suddenly have no future, I suddenly have no place to live, because I didn't want to live at our house without him. I didn't have, I had my job. But obviously I didn't go into that right away. They did give me a little bit of sleeping pills, which I used for like two or three days, I had a couple of very vivid dreams. One of which I couldn't say if it was really him communicating with me or not. I have doubts about that. But the other one I know is just my fabrication of my brain, it was a little bit different in that. It was all stuff I would say and not really stuff he would have said. So I could tell that my brain was just kind of processing things. The family was very supportive, but I was just restless and didn't belong anywhere.
Jennifer Levin
You said you didn't handle it well. What does that mean?
Cindy
I went with people everywhere they wanted to go or whatever they wanted to do. I was in close contact with his family because they pretty much had adopted me. I mean, when I first met his parents, they said call us mom and dad. And we were just dating, but they knew that we would probably get married at that point already. But I went places with friends, I moved in with different friends. I just like, yeah, I didn't want to be alone. So I moved in with a friend. And then I find out that she had a boyfriend sleeping overnight. And I'm going like that's not what I'm up for. I don't need this relationship stuff going on. And then I moved in with a brother and sister who are also other students at my school, I did go back to school to finish my AA degree. And then the sister has a boyfriend that was like, I just got away from that. And it was winter and they didn't want to heat the place. And then I found that people had been in my room and then I decided I'm gonna move somewhere else. So I moved in with someone else. I don't even remember the whole chain and I would go places go out at night. I never was the type to go out partying or dancing. So I thought, oh, it doesn't matter anymore. I'll go out partying and dancing and I go out, someone would ask me to dance, I'd say no thanks. And I go around and go back home. You know, just like, that wasn't helpful either. So I didn't have any activities that I was interested in. I didn't really care that much about school. I still don't even remember what the campus looked like, hardly at all. I was just in a fog. So I didn't, I was not gracious. I did not go to church I did not, you know, do all of the things that would have been good for me at the time.
Jennifer Levin
When did a Merle come into the picture?
Cindy
I met Merle through other people at Boeing. So I had gone places with people that knew Dan from Boeing. Merle had worked there and knew Dan before but then had not been working there for a while or got moved to another area or something. And then he came back and he goes, where's Dan? And they go like, Oh, didn't you hear, you know? So Merle was going scuba diving with another one of the guys or two guys from Boeing. And they invited me to go along and I met him on that scuba diving trip. I was not diving, but I was just on the boat and part of the crew, part of the gang so we were all kind of together at that point in time.
Jennifer Levin
Merle, when did you and Cindy start dating?
Merle
I recall it was at about six months that it was official but yeah, we're just kind of hanging in with the same crowd and you know crowd members with people who would come into the crowd others would step away not be in the crowd for a while. So it was that kind of a fluid society almost and it was great and we, I finally did ask her out, of course, out of courtesy, I waited till it was finals week for her.
Cindy
It was horrible. Now I can't go because I have to pass this test.
Merle
Just for a little while. So, you know, we go out and have a beer and pizza and then one night...
Cindy
I don't drink beer, but I went because I struggled with my studying.
Merle
Yeah, yeah. And then I took her to a Rush concert that week. And yeah, it was just a lot of fun. Drives, where we would put on Bible instructional cassettes. I don't think they were 8-tracks I think they were cassettes. And, you know, there'll be a lot of questions and answers. And then I'd pretend I knew what I was talking about. And I could, you know, wax eloquently with these theological answers and everything. I think I was probably right, most of the time. But it was great interaction back and forth. I'm a first generation Christian, I kind of started bringing myself to church growing up. And she, I think Cindy was dropped off at church, but there was never really the big spiritual component in our families. So it kind of got the click for both of us.
Cindy
And I, meanwhile, was accepting dates from invitations from people at school and another friend and stuff like that. So I was really running myself ragged going to school and going to every social event that I got invited to. So he was inviting me out. But it wasn't an exclusive relationship or anything for another number of months.
Jennifer Levin
So when it did become exclusive, what was it like for you, Cindy, to be in a serious relationship again, after Dan's death?
Cindy
Well, I was seriously not going to be in one, thank you. I just said, I will go places with you. But I've already had the best that I can have. And there isn't any better. I'm not looking for a relationship, he goes okay, we'll just be friends. And about a week later. He kissed me. And I'm like, well, that felt pretty good. So then he said, I would like to go out with you, and have you not going out with all those other people. And I go, huh. And so we talked about it a little bit. And I don't know, I guess I said, Yeah, we can give that a try. But I'm not looking for a permanent relationship. So I just really was clear that this was not going to go somewhere.
Jennifer Levin
How was the grief for you? During all of this? Did you feel Dan's presence? What feelings are going on for you?
Cindy
Well, this is a little bit of challenge not to really talk about Dan once we decided to date because before then I felt perfectly comfortable, saying, you know, this is who I am, this is where I'm at. But then I thought it was unfair to Merle for me to bring it up. So I thought of Dan every day and actually have for all but a handful of days in these last 40 years. I just think of him because so much of who I am today. You know, that was a very impressionable time in my life in my 20s, my early 20s. And he taught me so many things about living on my own and taking care of myself. So a lot of who I am is out of that relationship. But I tried to not be bringing up anything about Dan unless I kind of got permission from him. So every couple of weeks or so I'd say can I talk to you about something? I've been thinking about it? He would say yeah, sure. But I tried really hard not to make it, you know, the middle of our relationship once we were actually dating, because, you know, but it still was a part of my life.
Merle
Well, we tried to really make it a part of our relationship too, because he was a he was a good man, a good young man. They were both kids at the time, but he was a good guy. And we automatically kind of made it a big tent by including his parents and his siblings. The siblings I got along with, didn't agree with them at all spiritually. And with one of them I agreed with kind of politically but we still got along. And you know, they got cheated by by losing a sibling and a son. And to this day, our kids would, you know, call them aunt and uncle. Grandma is still with us. So they were part of our family. So it wasn't a thing where it should be taboo because that was a very integral part of her life. It was very short and ended way too soon.
Cindy
But then we didn't want to have Dan be a part of our relationship, especially once we talked about getting married.
Merle
Yeah, I was never compared to Dan by her. And that's really what made it so easy, I think for me.
Cindy
Yeah, so I did a little bit of journaling, I did a little bit of reaching out to other people that I felt like I could talk to more openly. And then if it was really something on my mind, I'd tell Merle, I'd like to talk to him about something or get his feedback on something. But I tried not to have him feel like he was being compared to a ghost who was being idealized, which I did sometimes I'd say, oh, you know, Dan would have done this sort of thing. He goes no, he wouldn't, you know, because he knew him. So he could say, You're idealizing him. Okay, I am, you know, he could totally call me on it.
Merle
That was a big word for me at the time.
Cindy
So, there was a little bit of negotiation, but he was willing to feedback on that. And I was careful to ask, and I don't think I ever shouted out to him about anything. I wish you were like Dan or something. You know, I felt it sometimes. Like, I wish I wish you were the kind of person that I'm already, you know, familiar with, I wish to break in to this new relationship. I already did that.
Merle
And that was easier for her, well, it was easier for me harder for her because, you know, young marrieds they argue about the dumbest stuff. Well, she kind of went through that. And so I got the more mature model. She did have to kind of start over a bit with me.
Cindy
I got the immature model. Yeah, I had to teach him. You know, you know, grown up, people don't think that that was a junior high behavior. Stop that. Yeah. You know, so he was pretty accepting, you know, once in a while, walked away. And I'd say, walking away as a childish behavior. Don't do that you stay here and you talk it out.
Jennifer Levin
Say more about the word negotiating where you had to do a little bit of negotiating.
Cindy
I told him what I thought and he would get mad and walk away, and then come back and say, I thought about what you said, and this part of it makes sense. That part of it doesn't have to do with me, that's, that's another, that's another world. That's not my world.
Merle
A lot of skills, I actually started to learn through the relationship, because it was it was a very different dynamic in my house with people coming and going in the house and a lot of lack of communication or silence. Eyerolls, that kind of thing as he grew up as I grew up. Yeah. So yeah, this is all kind of new territory.
Cindy
Merle is not really a vocal processor, and I am. We accepted coaching from people we trusted. And we especially had a couple that were friends. And she was a lot like Merle, and he was a lot like me, like if that husband, and if I were going to be late, we would call the other person, if she was going to be late or Merle was going to be late. They were late, you know, like they didn't call ahead. So I could often call this one friend and say, This is what's happening, explain it to me, and she would be able to explain, you know, that's not a big deal. And this is how it is, and blah, blah, blah. And they had known him since high school. So it was very helpful to find another couple with a different dynamic that could articulate some of the stuff that we couldn't explain. So that was the negotiation, it involved finding our resources, and getting someone who could, you know, clarify things for us. So the early part of our relationship, maybe the first year or two was, oh, maybe 10. And as we started to have the kids and stuff like that these guys already had kids. So they were able to say, Yeah, we don't agree on everything. But here's what we do expose the kids to everything except, you know, some of the stuff that's that you can't forget. And so they helped us arrive at a cohesive way of parenting. By being able to throw these things in there. Having friends with kids a little bit older than yours and who have been married a little bit longer than you. I can't express how valuable that was.
Jennifer Levin
So Merle I have an interesting question for you. Did you ever find yourself feeling like envy, not envious but like, jealous or insecure of Dan, insecure of yourself? Or jealous at all?
Merle
No, because he was raised in a different family environment. I mean, he had a father around and they did family things like Boy Scouts, and I think I think Grandpa Don was a scout leader, too. So those are things that they had put in place. And they thrived with and yeah, I really felt glad that they had achieved what they had as a family and again they were they were totally innocent with the accident and and the loss. Why should they have to pay more? So it was a thing to kind of celebrate. Yeah. And again, it was, he was never thrown in my face. So yeah.
Cindy
But the way we handle things is way different because of our different family backgrounds. So my family background was so much like Dan's, we, he was kid number two out of four. And I was kid number three out of four. And we both had parents who worked at Boeing. And, you know, we just already knew, you know, a lot like brother and sister how everything was gonna go, we both had big families. Merle walked into a big family. He was an only child, and I had two big families for him. So I think that was hard because he'd just get peopled out, I guess I would say.
Merle
Well there was there was times where, yeah, you know, dinner or lunch would go on and on. And, you know, just kind of sitting around you get bored in the environment, but not bored with the people. So it was it was good being part of two large families.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. What was that like for your family Merle, because all of a sudden they kind of overnight inherited two other families.
Merle
Not well, there was an opportunity to inherit two other families. But being an only child with with no father around, things were fine until we determined to get married. And then there were met with antagonism, especially Cindy, and then I was kind of in the role of protector. And then when our kids showed up, there was a lot of vindictiveness and there was some mental illness growing up and it would tend to manifest itself. So it was having to be on guard, you know, going over to my family's house for Christmas or Thanksgiving and then having to leave to go to the next, you know, other two families, her and her and Dan's. That that got very, very hard and very tense some years, I hated the whole idea of the holidays coming up because it was going to be an instant replay.
Cindy
But Merle had also been his mom's protector. So we had a few discussions about, you know, the complexity of stuff, you know, don't mention Dan's family don't, don't do any of this just makes it harder for my mom. So you know, he was kind of protecting his mom too, because he'd grown up as her man of the house. Again, so he was protecting me like, right at the moment, mostly by insulating what was going on. But he was protecting her at the same time, from all the things that he knew were upsetting to her.
Merle
And it was a no win. Because no matter who I married, that person would be the enemy. So there was going to be lashing out sooner or later about every get together. There, there was some form of that.
Cindy
And she saw me as Dan's widow. So like if he died, he's done. Forget about him, forget about his family. And his mom was really struggling with me having any loyalties to that extended family, which Merle and I had to work it out between us. Once we agreed, then whatever everybody else thought didn't matter. And we were just polite, like, Okay, we would just say okay, you know, and deal with the frustration, but there was some shouting matches of how I was handling everything so poorly. I had to think through you know, was I or wasn't I and who was going to be my resource, you know, you tend to go to a resource that will tell you what you want to hear. But in that case, I wanted the truth. So I had to figure out who's going to feed back to me what's really going on here and how I should handle this and Merle was pretty good about it, but he was also too close.
Merle
Yeah, there's times I would just pull my family from there for three to six months, six months when it got really bad. But usually three months and then you know, there was this kind of enemies of war under a truce, you know niceties and and then it would just get progressively worse but she had a terminal lung cancer diagnosis. It did come together at the end where she actually let Cindy come in to her room, to help with caregiving. So that was kind of an I wouldn't say an easy reconciliation, it could have been much better. But it could have ended much worse.
Cindy
But I think the helpful part for us was making a decision together, how are we going to handle this? What are you going to do? Here's our code words, right? We have escape code words. Like when she started landing on our daughter, for crying out loud, that was 10 years old. She shouldn't be serving her brother or whatever. It was just part of the behavior thing. And she was trying to kind of drive a wedge between some different family members. And that was completely unfamiliar to me. But when Merle and I could talk about it, Merle decided his loyalty was going to be to me, but he wasn't going to give up on his loyalty to his mom. So once he could say that, then we established what the baseline was going to be. And we could work from there.
Merle
Yeah. So I, I had to have an underlying philosophy of code with this whole thing. And this would be a question I would ask young husbands that are going through the same thing with the families. Are you going to be married your mother? Or are you going to be married your wife? It's your choice. I mean, in a you can go back and forth.
Cindy
And for me, are you going to be married to Dan, are you going to be married to Merle? Yeah. So there were a couple of decision points. For me.
Merle
Yeah. My I, my journey as an in-law in these two families was great. Hers was different. Hers was a rather rocky road that oftentimes when, yeah, and when the her boyfriend died when she died. And after we were caregiving with both of them.
Cindy
His mom's boyfriend.
Merle
He was always in and out. And he had his own things. You know, it was like, I didn't even care. I was just so glad they were both out of pain, because they both had painful cancer. That was the relief. But other than that, I didn't care. You know, I felt bad about that, too. And then I didn't understand that until I got into hospice volunteering, and then met with folks like you and whatnot, you know, just kind of started gleaning.
Cindy
Likewise, we're still learning from you, you know, what some of these emotions name that we go through, that are connected to our past.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah but the complexity here, I mean, you start off with grieving Dan's death. And then you're figuring out how to develop a new marriage and incorporate Dan's memory. And then you've got the complexity of families. And in laws and allegiances to parents, I mean, so much stuff, which is why I was so glad you agreed to talk with us today. So you can just I mean, of course, everyone's story is so different. You're just introducing all of the different things. One other thing you know, Cindy, you and Dan, you know, we're just launching your life. And so you must have had so much of Dan's in your life that you had to sort through. What did you do with your house that you didn't live with the belongings? How did you deal with all of the reminders of your previous life?
Merle
It's here. We love it.
Cindy
Merle and I early in our relationship before we had kids, I think traveled to Hawaii. And we got a teak chest there that's now at the foot of our bed. And that's where our memory stuff goes. So I have like Dan's Boy Scout badges. We didn't ever have children, Dan, and I didn't. So there's nobody to pass his stuff along to and his siblings got the things that they wanted to get. But some of his commemoration stuff, his honor cords from high school graduation, his diploma, all that stuff is in that teak chest. So once every half dozen years, I open it up and just kind of thumb through that stuff. And that's been a very nice memory that way. But again, as soon as we decided on something, that was when the peace would settle the dust from wherever we were struggling. So it was whenever something was undecided, that we were both kind of thinking different ways about then that was harder. Yeah, that's what we would have to kind of agree on. And we even found that in our relationship because we are so different in our backgrounds, but we like to, we land at the same spot, we like the same stuff. Then about every five or six weeks. We need to just break away kind of reset go over stuff, especially now that we're both still volunteering in the community. So we figured out that we also figured out, I have Dan's birthday death date and our anniversary date, where I do whatever I want those days, if I have to work I work, but afterward, then I go do something that I just feel like doing at the time that I think that Dan would do for me or with me. And the first decade or so I didn't invite Merle. But after that, I started telling him what I planned and if he wanted to go or not, so usually involve the mountains or the beach or the or, I don't know, dinner out or something like that.
Merle
And then also, go ahead.
Jennifer Levin
Oh, I was going to say that's just wonderful to hear.
Merle
Back before we had met, I think probably even before you guys got married, I bought 40 acres, and I was single wanted to be a mountain man. And in North Central Washington, beautiful country. And no, you were married because and then her and her husband, bought 10 acres in Orville. So not too far, just across the valley, from where I was at. And about six years ago, we said, hey, let's still sell these properties. My 40 acres sold, and then her 10 acres, hers and Dan's 10 acres sold. And she said you know what? I want the proceeds from that to go to Dan's parents, his mother now, and the siblings and the nieces and nephews. So she divided all that in honor of Dan and gave it to all these cousins that really didn't hear enough about Dan because they weren't born. And so they got to hear about him or what he was about. And they got to get some, you know, some money from something that was Dan's. You know, and sibling. So that was that was wonderful.
Cindy
It was a great connection to our nieces and nephews there. To go back to the siblings and have a meeting with each one and Merle came with me to all of those.
Jennifer Levin
I did want to ask you a question about coping mechanisms real quick, when things got really tough for you? Um, what Cindy, what did you do and Merle, please feel free to, to chime in as well. What helped you cope? You know, in early in your marriage, and I'm sure throughout your marriage?
Cindy
Yeah, we mentioned having friends that were a little more experienced at life and relationships than we were, we also volunteer. So we had a lot of connections in the community of various sorts, you know, I might be needing help with a project or, or a thing or selling something like the cars and so forth that that we had, but my faith system, you know, as we had gone and driven and done these Bible study kinds of things. I never read the Bible because I was a Christian. But it was a history book. And I was good at all the other stuff, but not history. So I just didn't read that big fat ol thing that had a lot of history in it. And then Merle started to bring to reality that these principles that help you with living, and having Christ in our relationship, to me was one of the significant things that we are so different and that sealed a whole lot of of the differences and helped us to communicate, we had a foundation for communication. But I think that regardless of our particular faith, or my particular faith, for people of any faith or no faith for them to decide, what are they going to do with all those comments from all the people that say that they have spiritual advice, or they, your faith will help you or all these kind of nebulous comments that are un-useful. Once you decide what you're going to do with that, then there's a lot of orderliness and peace that comes with that, deciding am I going to be closer to God am I going to be further away, and I went through a four month thing, about a year and a half after Dan died, am I either going to be mad at God for the rest of my life, or trust him that he knows what he's doing? And I was pretty sure I was just gonna stay mad because I was pretty mad. Because I figured God knew what was going to happen. He didn't stop it, and that's on him. So he's, I'm done with him. But then I come back to, you know, I really did believe there was a God. So at about four months, I thought, all right, I'm gonna trust Him. He knows what he's doing. And actually, I met Merle, that next week. You know, that was, I guess, about a year after Dan died. So deciding what your attitude is going to be not necessarily deciding all the stuff you believe, but deciding which path you're going to go down, brings a lot of peace and orderliness to the decision making process. And from there you have something to relate to. That's what I felt like was significant.
Merle
With with me it was a different story because I had some anger issues. So I would just get pissed off and I thought that it was progress when I wouldn't hold a grudge or stay angry for a week, because that was the culture that I was brought up in and so you know, getting angry and then getting over it was was good. But then, and this took many, many years understanding that somebody, her, can bring something up, and I'm not being attacked. So that was huge just starting to learn that and you know, you still have to, I'm still having to undo that unlearn that. You know growing up anybody even in my adulthood that was older than me that would get in my grill and scream I would that is would what we call a trigger. I mean, I would just so yeah, and then it's learning to get through those things that you're not being attacked.
Cindy
And I didn't even scream, I would ask a question. Like, why did you do that, that didn't make any sense to me at all. And I'm trying to make sense out of it. And I'm just being forward about it. And he's going like quit attacking me. So he decided his viewpoint was going to be not to jump to being attacked. The decision of how he was going to approach it was even more significant than what he did.
Jennifer Levin
So I'd like to ask you two more questions. Um, so you both mentioned that you're involved in helping out with and providing bereavement support. And so I wanted to ask, have your own grief experiences influenced the work you do right now?
Cindy
Yeah, the fact that Dan was hit, and it was a hit and run, I knew that guy actually in high school, and I live not too far from there. And he was drinking heavily in high school. So I know, he was likely drinking that night, but they didn't catch him till the next morning so they couldn't prove it. But I know that he was making just bad decisions, you know, the whole time. And I know, Dan was laying in a ditch, I know, this whole thing was really sudden, all of that just makes it possible somehow now to be able to hear other people's story. And I get that it's not like any other story. And yet, it's, it's a real story, you know, I mean, it's just so unbelievable. And you can't process what each step of all of that was, and how much I just wanted to be with him wherever he was alive or dead, whatever. And, of course, the coroners wouldn't let me. So to not have access, to not be able to change it, you know, all of those things that really makes me feel like I can hear their story. And I can say that, I know I don't have the same story but I do get that it was super hard. So to just be able to let people talk, and then to be able to share resources that I've learned about since which many weren't around at the time. But resources about understanding, you know, this all makes sense. This is how your body's gonna react. This is how you, you know, please do tell your doctor, that you've experienced a significant loss recently if you're going to get some treatment for something because that could be related. And here's other people that I know that have gone through what you've gone through, and here's a group that you can participate in, that will help you sort things out. So being able to share all of that is just so meaningful, and seeing people's lights come on that there's actually hope.
Jennifer Levin
Merle, what about you?
Merle
Yeah. Grief and Loss? Wow, it, it never really hit me until our kids rather closely together moved out. We raised them to where they they would if they wanted to move when they were 18. They could well, they up and did I mean, they got their nerve. Our daughter was like, 17, she started college early. And it wasn't long after that I couldn't get out of bed and I was really depressed and we didn't know what was going on. I don't think we had that lesson at hospice yet about that kind of loss. She wanted to have me on suicide watch. And it was really that bad. We didn't I wasn't suicidal, but it was unbelievable.
Cindy
I didn't want him to be alone for extended time.
Merle
My joints ached and I would have all the classic symptoms. So that was that was a huge learning curve there. And, you know, we've got two kids, and we've got 11 grandkids and we're not Mormon or Catholic. I know what your audience is thinking right now. A lot of grandkids but you know, they they understand these values too of bereavement and whatnot. And we've all learned from each other too.
Jennifer Levin
Well, we've had such a great conversation and we didn't get a lot of time to talk about everything that you do as community chaplains. But we will post your website and all of your programs in our Facebook that group. We will put a link and everything that you do do so that our listeners can go to your website and see all of your all of the things and the resources that you have.
Cindy
Yeah, that's a collection of our favorite things from a lot of places. And some people have even written poetry and stories and sent them to us.
Jennifer Levin
We'll make sure that that's available. And we'll write about that.
Merle
And we all steal from each other don't we.
Jennifer Levin
Well, unfortunately, there's enough pain to go around. And so we want to make sure that we can help as many people as possible. So my final question for both of you is, what advice would you give to a new couple, where one person in the relationship has experienced an unexpected death of a previous partner, before they've gotten together, and now two, they are living with grief in their new relationship. So Merle, let's start with you,
Merle
I would say, honor that wilderness journey. You know, don't let your grief don't let your pain go to waste. Just do what you can to embrace it and learn from it. And you know, let the people go, that aren't going to be there to help that you thought would be there, then not because they're bad people, but put them at a distance, because there's going to be others that are going to want to share and going to want to just bring the curiosity. So be prepared for those people to show up. And they'll put your life in a new trajectory.
Cindy
Yeah, and I like what Merle says there about approaching things with curiosity, approaching people sharing the stories reaching out, we have a responsibility to be there for one another. And we have a responsibility to reach out to care for ourselves. So there's groups, there's people, there's therapists, like yourself, there are resources. And we really collectively, as a group want people's lives to function and function well. So if you're not feeling that hope, then search it out. We're glad to help you with that. And with our website, people can reach us anytime. And I'm sure they can write to you and get a time in your busy schedule that they might be able to get some really significant help. As you are so wonderful, at doing so. Thank you very much.
Jennifer Levin
Well, thank you. This was such a wonderful discussion today. And you just really helped illuminate and shed light on such the complexity that happens. But you also showed, number one, that it is so possible, I've had the pleasure of knowing you both now for almost 18 months working with you on another project, but that you have this amazing marriage that works. Dan's presence I'm hearing is, I'm going to say the word alive and well in your marriage, even though he's unfortunately no longer physically present on this earth. But you've done a lot of hard work to, to get through, Cindy, individually, you know, the fact that he's no longer living, but to really negotiate. I loved how you use that word. You know, how difficult it was to figure out how to work through things in your marriage and with family relations. And it shows and I just think that's such a great role model that you are going to be to other people and I've got clients who are struggling with this you this issue right now.
Cindy
We do accept hugs.
Jennifer Levin
Okay. Well, I will tell people that they're open for hugs, Virtual hugs. Thank you for sharing your story with us today. Thank you both to Merle and Cindy.
I want to thank Cindy and Merle for opening up and sharing many of the issues they faced throughout the different phases of their relationship and marriage related to Cindy’s grief and Dan’s presence in their marriage. Human beings need love, companionship, and intimacy and for many the desire to enter a romantic relationship after the death of a partner is a natural course of action. In 1996 there was a study published in the Annuals of Clinical Psychiatry that found approximately two years after the death of a spouse, over 60% of the men who participated in the study and 20% of women were either remarried or involved in a new romantic relationship. For the women, younger age was the biggest predictor of getting involved in a new relationship. For the men, higher levels of monthly income and educational level were the biggest predictors getting into a new relationship 2 years after the death of a spouse or partner. Psychological well-being was also a significant predictor for both sexes. Now, I know that this study is quite outdated, but I see many of these factors, especially age and psychological well-being, at play today in many of the clients I work with who are deciding whether to date again after the death of loved one. Cindy was quite young when her husband Dan died and knew she wanted a family and to build her life with someone again. In our interview, I so appreciate how open Cindy and Merle we were us regarding some of their early struggles and the long-term issues they continued to face. Cindy talked about their continued need to negotiate these challenges. For example, she said she had to be conscious not to idealize Dan, not to compare him with Merle and to be patient in their new relationship. Merle shared his struggles with anger, difficulties expressing his feelings, and his early coping mechanisms such as walking away from difficult conversations. Cindy and Merle also understood the influence their upbringing and family of origin had on their new relationship and Cindy’s grief after Dan’s death. Both Cindy and Dan came from large families and were accustomed to integrating the needs of others within the family system. Merle, on the other hand, was an only child to a single mom, and was not used to large families. His mom and his family were not as accepting of Cindy or her situation which was extremely difficult at times. Merle reported making a conscious effort to connect to the reality that Dan’s family also lost a sibling and son even though his mother was not able to do so. I admire Cindy and Merle’s ability to reach out for support or “coaching”, as they called it, from friends who helped guide them through ruptures in their marriage that were rooted in Dan’s presence in the relationship. Cindy’s remembered having to make a conscious decision that she was married to Merle and not Dan. Merle learned how to patient, advocate for his needs, and communicate his feelings in an appropriate manner. The couple also shared the way they have created space in their home for the keepsakes from Cindy’s previous life with Dan and how Merle’s previous knowledge of Dan helped his adaptation to Cindy’s grieving process. Finally, Merle shared how grief including, non death losses, such as their kids leaving for college continued to be a theme throughout their marriage. It was such a pleasure and honor to be invited into the relationship and marriage of Cindy and Merle Meyers. This couple provided insight regarding the true realities that a new relationship encounters after the death of partner, and we were able to see how their grief evolved and changed over the years. Cindy and Merle have also channeled their grief experiences into other aspects of their life, especially their vocation as they have dedicated their lives to volunteering and pursuing Chaplaincy paths to help others who are also grieving, especially grief from sudden and unexpected death. I do want to emphasize that every relationship will have their own unique challenges specific to the partners involves. However, there are themes that we saw today that I believe the overwhelming majority of all new couples will face. First, the previous partner who died will always be part of the relationship and their presence will impact the relationship as a whole and not only the individual who is grieving but the new partner, associated family members, children, friends, I mean - everyone. Whenever possible, I encourage you to consciously invite the deceased partner into in your relationship or include their presence in the relationship when appropriate. If the death of the individual who died becomes a taboo subject, if it is a topic that is uncomfortable, avoided, or swept under the rug then it will most likely become the root of friction or tension. Over time, this relationship will be much easier to manage and often their presence will fade into the background once it is acknowledged and integrated. I also cannot emphasize the importance of communication about grief, idealization, comparisons, or coping mechanisms – basically, communication about grief in new relationships. This type of communication is beyond important and needs to happen as soon as possible. We also know that communication is the key to any relationship, but this communication is different, it can be so hard, but it is so essential. I have worked with countless couples who experience jealousy, who are unable to live up to the standards of the deceased partner, where there are unmet needs or expectations, you name it - all because the couple is uncomfortable talk about their feelings or needs connected to grief and the deceased partner. If you can acknowledge that you are entering into a relationship with a partner and their deceased partner and you can communicate about the tough stuff early on, you are setting yourself up for success and will have all of the tools you need to encounter the toughest of struggles. Please remember, the partner no is no longer living, most likely wants nothing but happiness for their loved one. Once again, I want to thank Merle and Cindy for their insight on this important topic. To learn more about the professional work and bereavement support programs that Cindy and Merle are involved in please visit our Facebook group “Talking about the podcast Untethered with Dr. Levin” where there is a link to their website and programs. Stay tuned for next Podcast interview on August Wednesday, August 16th with Shannon Sessions who is the Executive Director of Support 7, an amazing organization located in South Snohomish County in WA. Shannon will be explaining the services they provide to individuals who have experienced a sudden and unexpected death to move from trauma to hope and healing.
Thank you so much for joining today’s episode of Untethered Healing the Pain After a Sudden Death. To learn more about hope and guidance after sudden or unexpected death please visit therapyheals.com and sign up for my monthly newsletter Guidance in Grief at www.therapyheals.com. Bye for now.
