Jennifer Levin
Hi everyone and welcome to Untethered: Healing the pain from a sudden death. I am Dr. Jennifer Levin, and I specialize in traumatic death and helping individuals through the struggles, pain, trauma, and chaos of an unexpected death.
Today’s podcast features therapist and author Randie Clark. Randie is a therapist in Washington State who specializes in traumatic grief and specializes in helping people who have experienced the death of a child of any age. She co-authored the book When Your Child Dies: Tools for Mending Parents’ Broken Hearts after her adult son David was murdered in his early twenties. She also helped establish several traumatic grief support groups into hospital bereavement programs.
During our podcast interview, Randie shares the story of her son’s death, her early grief experiences and how she coped. She also talks about the impact his death had on her decisions to pursue a career in trauma therapy. We explore the different parts of her book and the future plans for revisions. Finally, Randie talks about some of the biggest challenges that parents face after an unexpected death of a child and provides guidance for getting some of these needs met.
Hi, Randy. Thank you so much for joining us today. So why don't you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself?
Randie Clark
Okay. Um, about myself. I am a graduate of Antioch University Seattle, with a degree, a master's degree in psychology and trauma. I live in a lovely little town in Washington. Have for many years, I did spend 12 years in Canada working up there on an island. Presently I have my daughter, her husband and my grandson live not far from here. I love gardening. And I love working as a therapist is how's that?
Jennifer Levin
Perfect. So what led you into the field of therapy and your specialization in working with traumatic grief?
Randie Clark
Well, in 1994, after my daughter graduated from high school and started college, I decided to finally return to college to complete my studies with the goal of becoming a psychotherapist. I had registered and was to start classes in January 1995. The reason I waited was I focused on working while raising my son and daughter. And in 95 it would be possible for me to go back to college. I ended up specializing in trauma because my son was murdered in December of 1995. Oh, I've got my numbers wrong. It was in 96 that I was going to start classes. My son was killed in 95, December. And because of my experience in school, I ended up needing to find out what is trauma all about? So I directed my studies towards figuring out what is trauma and how can we help people who are experiencing trauma, traumatic loss, the trajectory of my studies led me to devising and developing a traumatic loss support group, which I helped at that time. Well, Kirkland hospital, Edmonds hospital, it, introduce that into their bereavement programs. So it all just kind of grew from the experience, and directed my trajectory of the work I wanted to do as a therapist,
Jennifer Levin
that you were very intentional in what you wanted to study, almost as a way of perhaps helping your healing.
Randie Clark
Absolutely. Therapy students often joke in classes, the reason why we're there is to figure ourselves out first. And I was definitely I definitely needed to figure myself out. That was for sure. But the more I knew, the more I grew to understand the complicated, difficult grief that people have to deal with when their loss is traumatic. Including my own.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. Are you comfortable sharing with us what happened with your son David?
Randie Clark
Okay. Um, a little bit. My son was living in Eugene, Oregon, with his wife who was at that time seven months pregnant. They had just moved into a new place to live because their job as live-in caregivers for a quadriplegic had had come to an end. And so they were celebrating, and they had that evening, which was December 13, 1995. That evening they had decided to go downtown to the university district and mingle with their friends. And at that, in that evening, my son was assaulted by two young you know, 17-18 year old boys. And they tried to rob him and my son defended himself and so they, he was stabbed to death in that assault. He died in his wife's arms.
Jennifer Levin
I'm so sorry
Randie Clark
Thank you
Jennifer Levin
Remembering back to that time, what was your grief like right after he died?
Randie Clark
Oh, what was it like it was hell. It was agony. It was horror, and shock and disorientation and nightmarish. I could barely function. I was haunted with images of what happened to my son. And I was haunted with a compulsion to help him to make it all better. To make his owie go away, I was stunned. I was not myself. I had no orientation. And I remember feeling very desperate, very desperate and uncertain. I've always been a self assured person. And I had no clue what was happening to me, or how to deal with it. And that was the at the first.
Jennifer Levin
What were some of the things that helped you cope with that type of grief?
Randie Clark
Well, oddly enough, one of the things was I started classes for my degree on January 3rd 1996. And it was a place I could go, that nobody knew what happened to me. And so I wasn't being given those looks or asked those questions. Or, I could just go there for several hours a day and be in another place and be another person, I could be a student. So that was one of the things that really helped me. I had a therapist prior to the incident, and I saw her sometimes twice a week, because she, she could hold, she could hold my grief. And I could let it out. And that was profoundly helpful to me. Because it was so big. I was terrified of hurting others with it. So at first I could barely get through each day, and nights were dreadful. But it was the kindness of friends and the closeness that my husband and daughter shared, that were most helpful. And then I, my therapist gave me a referral to Dr. Rynearson, who is a psychiatrist through the, at that time, the Virginia Mason program. And he gave me an assessment and diagnose me with PTSD. So suddenly, I had something to wrap my head around that made sense. I thought I was psychotic. Yeah, I mean, the imagery, the flashbacks, the nightmares were unrelenting. I learned over time, I got treatment for the trauma. And I also joined a support group for victims of homicide, which was, I ended up going three times. Because each time I learned more, and I felt less alone. I cried when the tears arose, I rested, and I worked in the garden creating a memorial garden for David. I also followed every aspect of the criminal proceedings, some people can, some people can't. For me, it helped. All of this kept me going.
Jennifer Levin
After all of these years, how would you describe the grief now?
Randie Clark
There's a sadness in me, that doesn't change. There's a hole in my heart where my son was, after 27 years, I still miss him terribly. I think about what he would be like, what he would be doing, and what would his relationship be like with his son. But I can bring them into my mind now and I can remember without pain, we talk about it. We gather together for his birthday, and have a birthday party. And we have a special Christmas ritual dedicated to him. He loved Christmas. I have incorporated his absence into the fabric of my life. And I live with that ache, that sadness. Because I think I feel lost without it. It's, it's a part of who I am.
Jennifer Levin
I think that's an honest and real perspective. Thank you for sharing. One of the reasons I was so pleased that you agreed to participate in this interview was, I mean, I know you have really lived the experience of sudden and unexpected death. And then you are a therapist and you work with individuals who are going through sudden and unexpected death. And you also wrote a book. And the book is called when your child dies, tools for mending parents broken hearts. And I had the opportunity to read the book. And I have to say that this is probably the most comprehensive and best resource available for parents who've experienced a sudden and unexpected death of a child at any age. And we talked about the book. And I know you've told me that it's it's an older book now. But I even have given the book to a few of my clients who are really struggling after experiencing the death of their children, one who was an infant, and one who was an adult child. And I just think the book is really good. Fantastic. Tell me, what was it like for you to write this book?
Randie Clark
Oh, boy, it was many things. It took several years for me to have the courage to write the book. Because I knew it was going to reopen some doorways. And it was really hard at times. It brought my experience back to the surface. It was joyful. Because sharing this process with Avril, Avril Nagel, the co-author was it was joyful for us both because we both, we both knew how, how hard it was to find help out there to find resources. You know, this was this was many years ago, and the resources just weren't there. And that's when all we had was AOL. We didn't have Google. So we agreed that there needed to be a comprehensive resource. And Avril said, why don't we write a book? It took us four years. It was gratifying. The experience was very gratifying because knowing that it mobilized that desire to help others and we know we were filling a hole. A very important hole. And it's so much more. It was so much more we met with so many parents that experienced loss and got to hear their stories and got to help give them resources. And it just, it just expanded. It was a, it was a brilliant experience in many ways.
Jennifer Levin
And for those listeners who have not read the book, it's not about your stories. It's all about resources. And you are the author, give us an overview of the book.
Randie Clark
Oh, okay. With the caveat that we are in the process of, of redesigning the book, it was published in 2012. And since 2012, it's unbelievable how much more knowledge we have about trauma, how much more we know of healthy ways of treating trauma, helping people to get their feet back on the ground. There are so many more resources for grief and loss and child loss and traumatic loss that, you know, our reading list and resources at the back of the book are just completely incomplete. So you know what, I lost the thread.
Jennifer Levin
Yes, so I was asking you to provide an overview of what's in the book.
Randie Clark
Okay, so, a general overview is that we broke the book down into very simple, concise chapters. And each chapter covers a different area of the resources, the responses, the challenges, coping, dealing with different problems and issues related to this kind of loss. We broke it up into separate chapters because we knew that no one person would need to read all those chapters. And so it's the kind of book that a person can look at the index or look at the table of contents and decide what page they need to turn to based on their needs. We wanted to avoid a book that said, you know, this is grief and this is how to do it. Because there are no two griefs alike. There are no two losses alike. And so we tried to cover all of the different components, one might say, and make it accessible. The chapters are short, they're concise. And because, you know, I have to confess, I could hardly read a complete sentence, the first year. It just, the comprehension wasn't there. So we tried very much to keep it accessible, simple, and manageable.
Jennifer Levin
But it's all specific to losing a child unexpectedly at any age.
Randie Clark
Thank you. Yes, absolutely.
Jennifer Levin
Ah, and that's what's missing.
Randie Clark
From prenatal to, you know, an elderly son or daughter. And anything in between.
Jennifer Levin
Understanding the trauma and how to deal with other people, I mean, I, I know, I work with clients, and they get blown away by questions such as, how many children do you have? Things like that. And it just addresses all of those types of things that other types of grief books don't have the space to get into. So it really goes into that.
Randie Clark
Thank you for saying that.
Jennifer Levin
Can you describe the impact the information and the resources had on people who have experienced a sudden and unexpected death so those who are able to have access to the book?
Randie Clark
Well, I wish I could answer that, you know, completely. But you know, the books sold, you know, I don't know all the people who have read the book, but those that I've had connection with have spoken how it has helped them understand their trauma reactions. That's one thing I'd like to repeat is that in the very first part of the book, we focus on helping people see the difference between what part of them is their grief and what part of them is the trauma that they're dealing with. So that was one of our, one of the feedback that I've gotten from folks is that it really helped make sense out of what was going on. They weren't going crazy. It also I've gotten feedback that it helped them to have guideposts to navigate the many aspects of their grief, both the emotional and practical. You know, and I've gotten a few well, you know, I didn't read the whole thing. And I say, great. You read what you needed. And yeah, yeah, I liked that index, you know, so, I've gotten good feedback. Yeah. Good feedback.
Jennifer Levin
So I know in your private practice, as a therapist, you continue to work with parents who have experienced the sudden and unexpected death of a child or children. What do you see currently are some of the greatest needs or challenges that parents experience and particularly moms or dads have, after an unexpected death of a child?
Randie Clark
Okay, um, well, the world as they know it, have known it, has been shattered. And what was before is no more for them. So they are uprooted, and their world is upside down. And that's, to me, I think the greatest challenge is they're suddenly in a universe that makes no sense to them. And they need to be acknowledged, they need to be listened to without judgment, or fixing or platitudes. They need patience. They need to be given time and space to process the shock. Helping means making tea, observing, offering them hug. And, or taking care of the organization of information or their home or, you know, mowing their lawn, those kinds of things are very helpful to parents, because keeping track of those daily tasks, keeping track of order and organization in their life can be absolutely overwhelming. I think parents greatest challenges. And there's many, but primarily guilt and self blame. We are wired as parents with the command to keep our child alive. And we are robbed of that when they die. And parents can blame themselves and feel guilty and find fault in themselves for how and when their child died. Their other challenge I think is finding meaning and purpose in their lives now that nothing is what it was before. What's the point? I hear that a lot.
What is the point? So redefining their roles, you know, and remembering, I think that because your child has died, you have not stopped being a parent. And you always will be that child's parent. And how do you have that role living in your everyday life when your child is absent? And I feel like this just gonna skim the surface.
Jennifer Levin
Absolutely. Absolutely. But those are great starting spots. I know sometimes when I work with a client, I'm almost a little like, have to take a deep breath during that first session, because there's so much I know we need to cover and I have to pace myself. There's just so much it's just like, oh, no, this is gonna be a long process and just little bits at a time. You know,
Randie Clark
Small steps small steps.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. What are some of the ways that you help your clients meet those needs?
Randie Clark
Well, it's not just me, but it's what all those who are listening can take to heart that connecting with other bereaved parents, in online groups or in person is profoundly helpful. Because they find out they're not alone. Having therapy. With a qualified practitioner, a practitioner who works with trauma and grief, I think is very important. And it's important to know it's okay to talk about your child, to bring them into the room. And, and don't bother trying to protect others from your pain. That's not your job. That's a tough question to answer. Because everybody's individual. So best ways to get it met? You know, in the book, for example, there's a list of things that you can turn over to others. You know, there's, there's ways to be free and asking for help. And the worst thing that could happen as people can say no. But it's okay to say, you know, can you help me figure out how to organize my refrigerator or whatever? You know, can you help me get to this appointment? That under, am I helping with this answer,
Jennifer Levin
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I always like to remind clients that after, you know, something like this has happened, everyone feels so helpless, and they want to do something. And they feel so good to be asked to have a task.
Randie Clark
Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, otherwise, they're probably hiding behind their living room curtains going. Oh, I don't know if I should go over there because I know I don't want to upset them. So yes. Go there. Ask offer.
Jennifer Levin
Yes. You're actually helping them.
Randie Clark
Yeah. Yeah, I had a client who, whose neighbor just started mowing their lawn. Didn't ask, just went over and did it and went home. Just did it. So you know, if you if you think it needs doing go right ahead.
Jennifer Levin
It makes everybody feel a little bit better. You mentioned that you're starting on the next version of that. What are the plans for it?
Randie Clark
Well, we're still formulating, but our intention is to further abbreviate the text for one thing, to arrange the layout of the book so that it's more, you know, stages. Forgive me for that word, but the immediate, the aftermath and the long term. To make it even more navigable as a text, there are some things in the book that we have discovered that grieving parents who first who are in the initial stages, they just don't need that information, that information is available elsewhere now. It wasn't when we wrote the book. And so there will be, we will eliminate a few things, because you can get that information elsewhere. So yeah, we want to bring it more up to date. We want to flesh out the miscarriage section, we feel it's very inadequate. And there's, there's more to be helpful with that. Let's see. It was a little over a year ago, the publisher New Verizon Press released us of the contract, and they have a you know, about a 10 year lifespan with a book. And so we snatched up a bunch of copies. And we are now the resource for the book every once in a while it shows up on Amazon, a used copy. So, you know, there's other ways to get a hold of the present book, because I don't imagine we're going to be ready to publish it in a year or two. Because she's Avril real lives in Canada and I live here. And our work is keeping us very busy. So we're doing book things in between. But it's our goal. We're gonna do it.
Jennifer Levin
Okay, well, I don't think it's an amazing resource in its current form. And we'll have information on how to get the book in our Facebook group. And so if you're interested in that, just look for that information in the Facebook group. I have a final question for you. And that is, what advice would you give to someone who has just experienced a sudden or unexpected death of a child.
Randie Clark
Try your best to not isolate. Let yourself flow with your emotions and stay hydrated. It's okay to think you've lost your mind. Your world has been shattered. This experience is not something to get over. But rather one to go through one moment, one breath, one step at a time. The only promise I make to my clients, and this is kind of a modified Rose Kennedy quote, you will never get over this, but you will get better at it. Keep your expectations of yourself simple. Drink water. Let yourself cry, wail. Drink water. Rest your body. The work of grief occupies your entire body and mind 24/7. Ride the waves. You will try to make sense out of what has happened. It may never make sense. Your work is to first acknowledge the permanent physical absence of your child, which can open your heart and mind to discovering a new relationship of memory and love moving forward in your life. And that's kind of where we start.
Jennifer Levin
Some pretty good stuff. Thank you so much for your time and sharing your experiences and words of wisdom with us today.
Randie Clark
Thank you for having me, Jennifer. It really means a lot. It really does. I really value being able to reach out like this.
Jennifer Levin
Once again, Randy Clark, and what look for information on the book in our Facebook group and you can also reach out and get her contact information as well.
Randie is extremely passionate and dedicated to easing the pain for individuals living with traumatic grief, especially other parents who have also experienced the sudden death of a child. When we were talking after the interview she shared that helping others and connection are one of the best ways to cope and heal from traumatic grief.
I appreciated the authenticity the Randie shared when talking about her own experience about her son David’s death. She is now able to remember him without pain and to use her words “she has incorporated him into the fabric of her life”. But the sadness and ache has also become a forever part of her.
Randie’s book was such an accomplishment. First it was a healing experience for her but second it was and still is a compilation of education about trauma and grief, resources and coping mechanisms specific to parents or adults who have experienced a sudden death of a child at any age. And as she said she did it at a time when we did not have access to all of the internet resources that we have today. I am so pleased that there is a second version in progress and will happily wait until it is ready.
Finally, I really liked the way Randie addressed so many of the challenges specific to parents especially those related to identity, meaning making, and guilt or blame. We could have entire podcasts on each of those issues and for parents who are struggling with the death of a child each one of those challenges are very significant.
Thank you so much for joining today’s episode of Untethered Healing the Pain After a Sudden Death. Our podcast Untethered is now hosted on my website therapyheals – To learn more about hope and guidance after sudden or unexpected death please visit therapyheals.com and sign up for my monthly newsletter Guidance in Grief at www.therapyheals.com. Bye for now.
