Jennifer Levin
Hi everyone and welcome to Untethered: Healing the pain from a sudden death. I am Dr. Jennifer Levin, and I specialize in traumatic death and helping individuals through the struggles, pain, trauma, and chaos of an unexpected death.
Today’s podcast features psychologist and author Dr. Tina Payne Bryson. Dr. Bryson is the author of multiple books including Bottom Line for Baby and co-authored with Dan Siegel The Power of Showing Up and The Yes Brain, as well The Whole Brain-Child, which has been translated into over fifty languages. Tina is also the Founder and Executive Director of The Center for Connection, a multidisciplinary clinical practice, and of The Play Strong Institute, a center devoted to the study, research, and practice of play therapy through a neurodevelopment lens both located in Pasadena, California.
In our interview Tina shares her experience with the unexpected death of her father and the impact it had on her. She talks with us about how to best support both young children and teens who have experienced a sudden or unexpected death and provides tools parents, grandparents and caring adults can use to “show up” or comfort children and teens during this challenging and difficult time. We also talk about the resiliency in children and that with the love, support and patience from important adult figures in their lives they can heal and go on to lead healthy lives even after the experience of a sudden or unexpected death of a loved one.
Thank you so much for joining us today. So why don't you start off and tell us a little bit about yourself?
Tina Bryson
Well, thank you so much for having me. I am a mom to three boys. I'm a licensed clinical social worker and I'm the founder and executive director of a multidisciplinary clinical practice called the Center for Connection in Pasadena, California. And I'm the co author with Dan Siegel, of a handful of books, including The Whole Brain Child, and No Drama Discipline. And I'm the author of a book called The Bottom Line for Baby. And I do a lot of speaking and consulting and writing. And generally, my whole drive for my life's work is to change how we see particularly kids behaviors, and how we respond to them with the brain and the nervous system in mind, everything centering on relationships and regulation. Instead of just behavioral models or just extinguishing behavior. I'm really all about regulation through relationship.
Jennifer Levin
Great. Are you comfortable sharing with us any of your personal experiences with grief and loss?
Tina Bryson
Yeah, you know, it's interesting, I sort of felt strange that most of, my parents were really young when I was born, they were 19 and so I had very young grandparents and even great grandparents. And I'm 51 now and I had my grandparents up until about 10 years ago, all four of them. So I really didn't have experiences well into my adult years where I suffered any kind of loss, no significant person in my life had I lost until about six years ago, and six years ago, my dad died unexpectedly on Christmas, or Christmas evening. He had had some significant health issues, but my parents were young, you know, my mom's 70. But he was 64. And it was totally unexpected. It was devastating. And, you know, I think it really, a couple of really interesting things about it Jennifer, obviously, you know, grief better than anyone I know, grief surprised me, you know it first because it was kind of traumatic and unexpected. As I was feeling the grief and experiencing just this shock and sadness, and all of that, I was also able to observe the experience I was having. So this is stuff I teach all the time in my mental health work is that, you know, you can be experiencing your feelings, but you can also, or experiencing, you know, how, how frustrated you are with your kids, but also be an observer of that experience - it's sort of like a mindful approach, the sort of larger perspective. So I would notice, like, I'll give a really specific example. I would be just sitting, you know, cooking food or something, and my phone would ring. And, you know, that was how I found out that my dad had died, was his best friend called me. And when my phone would ring, I would immediately have a startle response, my heart would start beating faster, I would start sweating, I would get really hot, I would, my breathing would increase. And I would just feel this surge of kind of panic. So as I was feeling that and it wasn't just that it was like any loud noise or anything, and I was and so then, but then I was like, wow, this is fascinating. This is so interesting. My nervous system is so jacked up right now. And of course, the phone especially is really activating. But just to observe my nervous system. And I remember the first time I mean, I think advice I tell people is like, don't drive for two or three weeks, because the way you process information gets completely shifted. And so I would start to drive and I would get somewhere and I'd be like, I don't even know how I got here. Like I'm not safe to drive right now because I'm not processing information well. And so there was this experience of feeling the grief while also observing what grief is, sort of like your nervous system on grief. Right? And so that was really interesting for me but the other thing that really surprised me - I knew that grief was not linear, you know that and there are some years on Christmas where it doesn't I don't really feel triggered at all. I don't feel sad. I'm really delighting in being with my kids and stuff. And then it might be some weird middle of the afternoon some random day that's not connected to anything that I'm aware of and I get would I still will have like this flood of sadness, like oh, I wish I could ask, and then I realize, oh, I'm cooking. He was a great cook and I wanted to ask him about this or something like this. But the other thing that was fascinating to me, Jennifer, was that so for the first month after he died, I had shut down all my speaking engagements, all my work, I really just allowed myself some time and space. And one of the things that I craved more than anything was cues of safety. So that for me, you know that there's some sensory pieces to that fuzzy clothes. You know, we did a lot of this during the pandemic, you know, warm blankets, and fuzzy clothes and warm beverages and comfort foods and things that were cues of safety for my my nervous system. And I knew to do that for myself, being in water, you know, taking long, deep breaths, and being out in nature and walking, all these things. But about a month after my dad passed away, I was giving my first speaking event since that time, and I could tell things just did not feel normal for me. I felt really afraid being in a hotel room by myself, which I never, you know, never had felt that before. And it was still my nervous system on high alert. But this woman came up to me after my talk, and I shared during the talk that my dad had just passed away. And she came up to me and she said something that I thought was really strange. She said, get ready for a new relationship with your dad. And I was like, you don't know me, like, what are you even talking about? Everybody's grief is individual, you know, whatever, I just kind of blew her off. And about six months later, I knew what she was talking about. And that might not be everybody's experience. But my dad was not an easy person to be in relationship with, he often would not show up for birthday parties. He often would, you know, he was he was emotionally like, the way I understand it now is he had pretty severe avoidant attachment, missing attachment. And so he didn't know how to do relationship or intimacy very well. He found other ways to communicate love, but he was not, he didn't show up in the ways I hoped he would for me or my kids. And what was interesting is that then after he passed away, we couldn't have those ruptures anymore. And, and I was surprised that, you know, there were a lot of things, he wasn't that I needed him to be in my growing up years. But I was able to see the things he did and see and really appreciate him and in a new way. And, and I really, I felt like he was with me all the time, as opposed to an hour away and I might not see him or hear from him for months, he might not respond to my calls, et cetera. But he was with me, and I could have a different kind of relationship with him in a way that that really felt connected in a way that couldn't happen when he was alive. So I found a lot of peace and joy, I feel a lot of peace and joy relationally with him post mortem, in ways that I wasn't able to when he was alive. So anyway, those are just some of my my personal experiences with grief. And I find the whole thing fascinating. And you're such a genius in how you know, how you show up for people in those moments. And I've been so happy to have you to call upon for friends and colleagues who need someone to show up and walk their nervous system through the process.
Jennifer Levin
Well, thank you so much for sharing your personal experiences and insight and and thank you for that nice compliment. You know, I work with so many families who have kids of varying ages, and different understanding about death. And I'm so pleased to have you here with us today to be able to talk about this. And some of my clients have children who are not old enough to understand the concept of death, while others do. And I actually no longer work with young children, since the majority of my work is now online. And today, I was hoping we could use your expertise to better understand how parents and grandparents and other adults instrumental to a young child or teens healing process can support them through the traumatic grief experience. And you've had that as well. So let's start off with young children who are not old enough to conceptually understand death. And just to review for our listeners, researchers have identified four concepts that children need to understand to comprehend or fully grasp the meaning of death. And they need to understand that death is universal, irreversible, there's a causality for death, and that once someone has died, they are non functional in nature. And I go over that in some of my other podcasts. But how can an adult support a child who has experienced a sudden or an unexpected death of a loved one, but doesn't yet understand the conceptual meaning of death?
Tina Bryson
Yeah, it's a tricky one because those four things you listed all require pretty strong prefrontal cortex ability that is not yet developed in young children. And it requires the ability to do some cognitive abstract thinking which they actually won't have until around middle school, to really be able to do significant abstract thinking. So I think one of the things that I would say is number one for everybody, particularly for young children, just like what I said I needed is they need a lot of cues of safety. And they need a lot. That's, you know, the attachment literature tells us that our, it's a, it's an inborn instinctual drive for us to want to be connected and protected, particularly when we're in distress. So just like a bear cub in the forest, who sees a predator or who gets hurt or gets scared, runs immediately to their mama bear. This is an instinct in order to better ensure their survival, that our attachment needs, again, to feel connected and protected. And Dan Siegel and I talk about how we cultivate secure attachment in our book, The Power of Showing Up where we talked about feeling safe, seen, soothed and secure. And we can talk more about those if you'd like. Those are primary needs that we all have in a relationship, but they are most activated, the need for those is most intense when we are in distress, when we have something that's happened that overwhelms our nervous system overwhelms our ability to cope. And so what I would say is, at their worst, when things are the hardest, that's when they need us the most. So I would say just really, really focusing on cues of safety, comfort, connection, that would be number one. And then the other thing around those four things that they need to understand, which they don't yet have the full brain capability to do is just like everything we want them to learn, they're going to need reps. And so repeated experiences just like, you know, when I lift weights, my muscle, if I do reps, my muscle gets stronger. This is how brain wiring takes place is from repeated experiences. So we're going to need to have lots of conversations, and we're going to need to make it concrete, you know, it might even be something like, this means dad won't be sleeping in the house anymore, because he's no longer alive, right? It might be really concrete, like dad will not be picking you up from school, you won't see dad, again, it might be those kinds of really concrete things with lots and lots of reps and storytelling. So I think that's really key is that we, let me say one other thing, Jennifer, and that is as grownups that are important to children. So whether we're their parents, or we're aunts, and uncles, or whatever. We are meaning makers for children. So just like when a little kid hears a scary noise and looks up to the sky with this frightened look on their face, if we as adults go, oh, my God, it's a helicopter, and it's super loud and it's oh my gosh, we have to run inside. We're creating meaning for helicopters are dangerous. Or if we go, oh, wow, that's so loud. Look, this propellers, that's a helicopter, it's flying, and we create meaning in our response, and our words matter a lot. So we have to be really careful. Like, you know, if we say, you know, Dad died because he got sick, and we're not specific enough, then the next time the kid gets sick, they're terrified they might die, right? So because we've created meaning around this, so we need to be really specific about, you know, what it is we're talking about when we use causality. And just be really aware that the brain is an association machine, that repeated experiences create wiring in the brain, and that we are creating meaning around everything. And particularly when we are in grief, I really believe it's a period of open plasticity in our brains, meaning our brain is more open to change at that period. And really, we can talk more about this, I think the what happens post grief is your brain has to do a total remapping of reality. And so I think it's an open period of plasticity. So what we say matters even more. That doesn't mean we have to be perfect or know exactly what to say, or how to say it exactly. We're gonna stumble through it, because particularly if we're also grieving, our brains aren't working as well as they normally are. And we're not processing information. But fortunately, people like you, and there are lots of great resources like I Love Our House Grief.org. That's a great resource, particularly for young kids about how to have those conversations around specific causes and specific relationships. So I think those are important things to hold on to as we navigate each specific individual experience. Everybody's grief is different. Every child is different. Every grownup is different, every relationship is different. So rarely Am I super prescriptive around anything. But I think holding these principles in mind, communicating like I said, safety, but also I think more and I talk about this with parents all the time, but more so with grief than probably any other topic is we need to show a confidence and competence that things are going to be okay that they are safe that we are safe, and to say, even if you're falling apart, sobbing and authentically devastated and broken feeling, we still can communicate that this is the hardest thing we're ever going to have to do and we're going to do it together. We've got this. We don't, I don't know exactly how to do it, but I know we can do it. We're gonna do this together and giving that kind of competence and confidence creates a lot of safety.
Jennifer Levin
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. So what are some of the best ways that we can provide support to older children or teens who are able to grasp the concept?
Tina Bryson
I think the same principles that I just said apply. And then as they do have better developmental ability to have more abstract thinking, this is where they may be doing projections into the future. What does this mean for down the road, this means they won't see me graduate from high school or college or won't be at my wedding or, you know, there's some projections for this down the road, which of course, as adults, we're thinking about, because we have the developmental ability to do that. I think, you know, one of the most important things is that when our children are suffering, we don't want them to suffer, that feels horrible to us, right? And as attachment figures, that's an inborn instinct in us is to go connect and protect and help them be okay. But sometimes that leads us to things that are not helpful, like distraction, or, and not to say distractions are not helpful. Sometimes it's like, you know, what, we've been grieving all afternoon, let's watch a movie like, that can be really powerful too. Or we minimize or we over say, everything's gonna be fine. And we kind of create this false sort of sense of, everything's fine. It's so powerful when these things come up, to allow the feelings to happen. And, and so to create space for that, and including when something comes up if your kid says, you know, is feeling, and a lot of times with adolescents and adults too, but particularly adolescents, given everything else that's happening for them developmentally, grief and sadness, and fear may come out as aggression, disrespect. It may come out in, in sort of some what we would think of as bad behavior. So if your kid's coming at you, because you're a safe person, they know they can't lose your love. That's why they come at you is, you know, to really realize there's probably something underneath the surface there. And then to slow things down. pause, take a breath, regulate your own nervous system first. And then to kind of explore with them Be like, it seems like something else is going on here. I'm curious about what you're noticing about how you're feeling? Or and allow the space for it to say, Yes, this is really sad. And when you think about, you know, your mom not being at your wedding, or not being at high school graduation, that's really sad. It's something, that is a loss, and to allow it, to say it, to name it, and to allow it to happen, and then to even say, is there anything else you're thinking about? Is there, because they can do that mental time travel. You know, this is really sad, are there other things you're thinking about and create an invitation to let them say it, and to allow for it and not shut it down and not distract in those moments. And then when you've had time to sit in it and be together, then we can move on to something else. But I think, I think one of the things too, that I think is so important, is what we say and what we, how we solve these moments, we don't, those those things are not really what we need to be focused on. It's really our presence that matters more than anything, our calm, authentic presence and grieving together. I think that's really important too. So yes, all the same things, cues of safety, all of that, but then allowing for those conversations and an invitation into moving into the abstract impact of what that means for the future as well.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah, and I love that grieving together, especially as they get older. I mean, even younger it's important too. But I think it's such an opportunity, even for families to get closer together through the experience. Yeah. So one of the things that I'm constantly asked by adult clients is whether their children or teens are grieving correctly as if there is a right or wrong way. In other words, you know, is my child displaying enough emotions? Are they talking about their feelings? And I'm curious, I'm sure you've gotten this question before, but how do you respond to adults who wonder, you know, is their child grieving in an appropriate manner.
Tina Bryson
So much of the time, we don't even really understand, we have false information. Like, for example, one of the things that I hear parents get really disturbed, sometimes when they tell their child, some really devastating news, the child will laugh. And the parents find it really disturbing. They're like, Oh, my God, my child's a sociopath. And I'm like, well, there's less than 1% chance that that's true. But laughter and crying and screaming and yelling, and excessive motor movement, these are all examples of a nervous system that's in a hyper aroused state. So laughter is an appropriate response, if you understand nervous system arousal and hyper arousal. So I think, you know, I think what, what I find myself saying to parents, probably more than anything, because we all worry, right? As parents, we worry about everything we worry about worrying too much or not enough. And all of those things too, is to say, you know what, we really can trust our child's development. If you look back six months ago, is your child better at whatever's worrying you than they were six months ago? Probably you can trust development, not to say there aren't times for intervention. But I think I could use that phrase with you can trust your child's grief, you can trust your child's process. And I think giving the parents permission to, let me ask you, Jennifer, here's a theory that I just that just popped into my head. I'm wondering if when parents ask that question, like, Is my child grieving appropriately? Obviously, what's underneath that is fear. Is my child, okay, is really the question they're asking. But I think what I'm wondering about is, if that's an area where they feel like they might they obviously we can't, someone dies, we can't control that. We experienced grief, we can't control that. Obviously, we can navigate it. We have some say in how we manage our nervous systems and our emotions, but we don't have control over that. I'm wondering if when a parent's asking like, Is my child grieving appropriately? If that's a false sense of trying to control what's happening? So that then they get an answer so that then they can put them into intervention? Like, I'm wondering if it's a way to try and create a more sense of security and safety? Does that make any sense?
Jennifer Levin
Absolutely. And a lot of times, I feel like it's an intervention to make the parent feel better, that the parent's doing something, you're right, that they can control. And, you know, usually the child will come in for a couple of sessions, and we see that everything's fine. I mean, as fine as fine can be. And they're like, Yeah, I'm just here, because mom says I have to be here.
Tina Bryson
I think it's probably very similar to like, parents often will come into my office, and they'll say, you know, I'm worried my child's you know, not doing X, Y and Z, or that they are doing X, Y and Z. And often the problem is not the child's behavior, it's the parents inappropriate developmental expectation to say, well, three year olds don't have the ability to regulate their emotions, they need co regulation, you know, they don't and really, most parents are vastly off in terms of what they think children should be doing at certain ages. Like developmentally, we don't get a lot of education around developmental appropriateness. And when you watch other kids, other people's kids, you don't see them at home with their parents. You see them, you know, in different like, I remember one time going to kindergarten to pick up my kid. And the mom was like, Ben must never give you any trouble. He's just the sweetest kid. I'm like, are you kidding? I was killed him this morning. You know, like, so everyone thinks Ben's perfect. So I must be parenting perfectly. No, like you're seeing him at school, you're not seeing him at home when he's having a meltdown before bedtime. So I think we have unrealistic expectations and to connect that back to your question, I think that question has, there's a lot of peace around where you would come in around psychoeducation. I think people don't, just like we don't get a lot of education on development, we don't get a lot of education around the wide variety of what grief looks like and at different ages. And so I think giving permission to trust the grieving process and to trust your child, as long as you're creating that safe space. And usually, the intervention is most powerful with getting the parent in that moment, into the place where they can grieve together or that they can pay regulated enough to show up for their kid,
Jennifer Levin
Right. And I also see so many parents with delayed grief because they spend so much time focusing on their child's grief that they're unable to address their grief.
Tina Bryson
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I mean, that's that's kind of also instinct is to protect and connect the children before we you know, they eat before we eat, you know, etc. So, that makes sense. It may delay the whole process for the family, but I think probably there are some benefits and some drawbacks to that.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah, very similarly, parents and other adults also become concerned at times when children do not want to talk about family members who've died. And you know, my personal philosophy is never to force a child to talk about anything that they're not ready to engage in conversations with. And that includes grief. And, you know, there's been times when I've been, had associates that I've been training and they come back and say, well, we didn't talk about grief because the child doesn't want to, and I say, great, form a relationship with a child. So when they're ready, you're the person that they're going to want to talk with. And I'm curious, how do you address this situation, when children and teens don't want to talk about, you know, another parent who died or grandparent or friend,
Tina Bryson
I think, you know, I teach this idea all the time of connect and redirect, I teach this idea of, you know, really showing up and co-regulating and really being present with your child's emotions. And I always have a parent in my audience that says, but what if they don't want me to, and I'm like, please don't chase them and be like, I'm going to give you empathy and connect with you like, in a way, that's actually really disrespectful. The key is, and this is just such an important phrase, the availability of your presence, it's not forcing them, you know, especially given how grief is how, in one moment you really might be sitting in it, and really, you know, impacted by it. And then another moment, you might be like, shopping for the cutest boots ever online, and you're laughing with your friend. And all of that's okay, it's all part of the human range of emotion. And as we deal with it, we can't deal with all of the hard stuff every second. And so I think if the parent is like, oh, we need to talk about this. That's based on what's happening in the parents nervous system, and in the parents, what the parent is holding. It's not necessarily where the kid is. But even in the moments where the kid maybe, you know, you see something and you see them maybe holding back an emotion, but not wanting to go there. Like you kind of see you've got enough attunement, that you're like, oh, that was just a little mini grief moment there. They're thinking about dad, or they're thinking about their sibling that passed away, or whatever it is, honestly, like putting a hand on their back and just saying, sometimes it's really hard, isn't it? Or I'm thinking about him too. And you just create this little invitation with connection, it's your availability of presence. And if you try to have a conversation, and they shut you down, just say, well, I know you're gonna get sick of me saying it and I hope you get sick of me saying it, because I'm going to keep saying it. I'm always here, I'm here, I'm ready to listen whenever you want to talk. And so you create that invitation. And you create the kind of safety in relationship, like you said, building relationship. It's funny, we have to teach ourselves this because I have, I've had to teach myself this too. The brain is an association machine, if something feels good, we want to do more of it. If something feels bad, we want to do less of it. Okay, simple, simple. So if your kids share something with you and you freak out, their nervous systems gonna be like, well, that didn't, I don't want to do that again. So they're less likely to share things with you in the future. Sometimes kids are not sharing things because their parent, they're trying to protect their parent. Which is why it's so important for parents, particularly to assure their children that even when they're sad, they're still okay. And that sadness is just part of feeling it's a healthy response. And that so that you don't have to protect me, I know how to take care of myself, I have support, I know how to sit with my sadness, and to give them that assurance, so they don't feel they have to protect you. Or they're avoiding talking to you because you freak the hell out. And so I think if you are listening to this, and you're like, shoot, I've already messed that up. You have their history is not destiny. And you it's never too late to make a repair. You can even go back to your kid and say, You know what, when you told me such and such, I totally freaked out. And now I'm worried you're not going to want to come tell me stuff. And I promise I'm not going to do that again. And if in the future, you feel yourself starting to freak out, give yourself permission to say Hang on, I just let me go to the bathroom, I want to pick right back up here. But give me just a second. Or to say to your kid, you know what, I want to respond to you in a way that isn't about to freak out. So I'm going to take a minute, I'm gonna go get a glass of water, so that I can respond really thoughtfully and intentionally just say that, just be real about that. So usually when kids don't want to talk about it, it's like they're not ready. It's not their time to do it. You make yourself available in presence, or they're trying to protect you, you can assure them that you know how to take care of yourself and your grief and that you're doing it together. They don't have to protect you or they're doing, they're not talking because you're you freak out and you can go make a repair about that.
Jennifer Levin
I love that, that concept of repair. Kids can be so forgiving if you admit, I blew it. I blew it but I'm ready to do it again. And to make it right.
Tina Bryson
a phrase my kids have heard me say a million times. And I say it to my husband too, is I really wish I had handled that differently. And if I can handle it differently again, I would. But all I know to do now is to apologize and ask for your forgiveness or ask for a do over or whatever. But yeah, I didn't handle that the way I wish I had. And, and it's really important to not, I want to teach my kids that they are responsible for their own behavior no matter what anybody else does. So I never come in with my apology to say, but if you had been listening, right, that wouldn't have happened. Or, you know, if you hadn't been so aggressive and abrasive in your tone, I wouldn't have snapped. No, I need to say you were aggressive and abrasive in your tone. And I didn't handle that well. So I can you can still name that. You're not sugarcoating it. But you're not blaming it on that. You're saying I I'm responsible for my own behavior.
Jennifer Levin
So, you know, kids being forgiving. One of the things I was hoping you would talk about, and that I share a lot is that kids, children, teens, they are so resilient, especially in grief. And I know you talk about this, but can you talk more about it from a scientific perspective,
Tina Bryson
You know, I've never really thought about that much, Jennifer. But what I will tell you that comes to mind immediately, is back to plasticity. So when we say the brain is plastic, we mean it moldable from experience, and our kids and teenagers all the way up into their mid to late 20s have incredibly plastic, moldable brains. So they learn language more quickly, they adjust and can be more flexible, around changes in routines and habits much more so than adults. As adults, our brains are plastic throughout our lifespan, but much less so. It takes us more reps over more time to learn language and other kinds of things. And one of the things, and I could be wrong about thinking about it this way. But one of the things I think about about any big life change, and particularly like about my experience with my dad is your brain maps reality. And so there are these, you know, what fires wire, so we have this wiring in our brains about a person being in our lives in a in a real, you know, legitimate, concrete way. And then when they die, your brain has that mapped wiring, and that mapped reality of that person being in the world. And when they're not in the world anymore. We have to remap reality. And so this is why, you know, in the weeks that followed, like I kind of kept forgetting. I mean, I was still sad. But I'd be like, Oh, I guess I can't call him for this or I can't. You know, it's sort of like, it's just so you feel really disoriented in the world, I felt really disoriented. And part of that is because my brain's map wasn't reality anymore. It didn't know how to map a new reality without him in the world. And so that's part of the grieving process is remapping reality without that person in the world. And I think for children and adolescents who have these tremendously, plastic brains, that happens faster for them than it does for adults, I think. That's my theory around this. Because their brain, that firing and wiring can just happen, they can form a new reality, which is why they change friends, you know, easily, and they transition to all of these different things. Because that kind of flexibility is one of the huge benefits of plasticity, which is beautiful, because it allows them to continue to adapt and learn in new environments, so that when they become adults, they have kind of milked the best things out of their life's experience. So I think that may be one of the reasons that they are more resilient, is because their brains are more plastic.
Jennifer Levin
That makes total sense. total sense. I also sometimes refer to it as a, I call it a grief reflex. Because we have this reflex that is just so embedded with us that for so many people are it's like, I'm just so used to this. I'm just so used to this. I'm so used to this. And you know, for me, I mean, just hearing the way you explain that, you know, when you're younger, that reflex isn't so embedded within you. But hearing you explain it that way makes sense.
Tina Bryson
Another thing that is really interesting. That's just kind of another way as you said that what jogged for me is that our perception of time is actually really different across development. So one of the things is, and we do this in experiments, where if someone is given a novel experience they perceive time to be really slow, right, think about, like when you were a kid, it was like 100 years to wait a week for your birthday. You know, like Christmas seems like it's 10 years away, right? So time is really slow because if you're a child and adolescent, a lot of the world is still novel, a lot of things are still new. So your perception of time is much slower. I mean, is much faster. As we get older, there are less things that are novel, our brain is more wired and more hardwired. So the passage of time is actually a lot. Wait, am I getting this mixed up?
Jennifer Levin
I think you have it reversed.
Tina Bryson
Have it reversed. Oh my gosh. Okay. You know what, speaking of brains, I'm, like I said, I'm 51. And my, my peri-menopausal brain sometimes has trouble. So because so time goes by really slowly when you're a kid, and it goes by really fast as an adult. And so now I don't know if this theory is even working. Now, I don't even know.
Jennifer Levin
That's okay, we can go into the next question,
Tina Bryson
Passage of time is interesting.
Jennifer Levin
It is especially and then you throw grief on it, and it's distorted. So I've got a couple more questions for you. So many times, I find myself working with a parent who's left with the difficult task of raising at least one child after the sudden or unexpected death of a partner. And they often complain of feeling so inadequate, because they can't fill both the role of mother, father or partner. And they worry that their child or children are going to be damaged because they're not being raised by two parents. And how would you respond to a parent who feels this way?
Tina Bryson
I think they're comparing it to what they had imagined in the future. But what I will say is the attachment literature, and by the by the way, just in case anyone's listening and thinks I'm talking about attachment, parenting, this is not at all anything related to attachment parenting. This is 70 plus years of under the umbrella of developmental psychology attachment science, cross cultural, longitudinal, solid, solid science. And I love it, that's the book, The Power of Showing Up is really sort of the highlights of my favorite parts from the literature. But I love this literature body, because it's so hopeful. And one of the things that is really clear from the literature is that one of the best predictors for how well kids turn out is that they have what's called secure attachment with at least one person, right. And so that's what I was saying before, it's about being connection protected, particularly when you're in distress. And the way we cultivate secure attachment is through these four S's of feeling safe and seen and soothed and secure, and knowing someone's going to see and respond to your needs and keep showing up for you. Okay, that's, that's the summary of 70 plus years of attachment science.
Jennifer Levin
It's just one person they need.
Tina Bryson
And just one. So the literature is really clear that those best outcomes on everything they're measured on cross culturally, longitudinally, is that they've had secure attachment with at least one person. Now, the other thing I would say about this is, at whatever age the child was when the other parent died, they still had the benefit of that additional attachment relationship. So it's not that, you know, the absence of it in the future means it wasn't ever anything like any kind of reps we get around having people show up for us and having attachment figures, particularly in young childhood, those are huge contributors to these beautiful outcomes. So one parent is enough. And ideally, kids have other attachment figures, like grandparents, like a pastor, like coaches, like their best friend's parents, et cetera. You know, that was one thing I was really hell bent on when my kids, when I had kids was that they would have as many attachment figures as I could compile for them. The other thing is, I think we put so much undue pressure on ourselves as parents to be everything and do everything for our children. And, of course, what we do matters, we are the most important person in our child's life in terms of their growing up years. But we're not the only one. And in fact, as they move into childhood and adolescent, their peers and other adults become more and more important. And so, you know, all the time parents come to me, they're like, my kids doing this thing. And I like, if it's a little kid, they pick their nose, if it's an older kid, like they smell and they won't shower, and I'm like, you don't even have to worry about it. Because the minute one of their peers says something about it, they will change that behavior. So that just shows you like we're powerful, important people, but we're not the only powerful, important people. So don't put so much on yourself. The research shows it's really one person can lead to all of those beautiful outcomes. So yeah, I mean, if your partner has passed away, and they had a great sense of humor, your kids gonna miss out on that going into their adult years. Yes, there's a loss there, there's a missing out. But it doesn't mean that their children are going to be failures, or that the living parent is a failure in any stretch of the imagination. They are powerful, important and impactful.
That's great. And so reassuring. Let's go to my final question for you today, which is, what advice would you provide to a parent or a grandparent who finds himself responsible for raising a child or a teen after they've experienced the sudden or unexpected death of a loved one?
I think I would go back to the four S's again, I think it's the thing that we know we need most and particularly when we're in distress, it's the thing. So, you know, in the whole brainchild, Dan Siegel and I kind of push back against the idea of survive versus thrive, His love has people talking about you want to survive just survive, or do you want to thrive? Dan and I pushed back against that to say the survive moments are the Thrive moments. And what that means is that how we handle the survived moments can be brain building, relationship building, like you said, create more intimacy and connection. And so I think, what our kids need most, let me say it this way, I'll speak directly to one to someone who is raising a child who has lost a parent or someone really important to them, is to say what that child needs most from you is you, you showing up flawed, imperfect, grieving yourself, perhaps, but you, your presence and and if you can, not perfectly, but predictably, and often enough, show up for that child or teen or young adult or even partner. This applies to adults too, because we have attachment needs throughout our lifespan, if we can help them feel safe, if we can help them feel seen and understood, if we can soothe them and comfort them by our presence, or by a fuzzy blanket or anything in between. And then they'll develop that four S's of security where their brain wires and maps from repeated experiences of you showing up and helping them feel safe, seen and soothed. Their brain will map to know and have this security, this secure attachment that you will show up for them. And when things get really hard, you will show up for them. And when things are amazing and beautiful, and you're celebrating, you will show up for them. That's really the essence. And I think there's so much grace in that and so much freedom to not be perfect, because it really is about showing up. Even though it's messy and and hard sometimes I think that's that's the key. And for me, there are so many times as a mom, as a wife, as a daughter, as a best friend, as a clinician, and as a professional, where I don't know what the right thing to do or say is in that moment, lots of times, but the four S's is always my Northstar - if I can respond in a way that helps the other person feel safe and sane and soothe and secure and knowing I'm gonna keep showing up. That is not only pro-relationship, it feels good to them, it feels good to me, but it's also building the brain. It's also leading to those optimal develop those optimal brain development things that are the best outcomes. So for me, the four S's is the answer. And if you want to hear more about it, there's a refrigerator sheet on my website that has the main points from the book, and that's free. The book is in audio form and obviously in written form. And I've been on a lot of podcasts talking about it. There's tons of free resources, if you want to dig down into the four S's and what it looks like in everyday parenting as well.
Jennifer Levin
We will make sure that we put all of that in our Facebook group and in the show notes so that our listeners can have easy access to that. So Dr. Tina Bryson, I cannot thank you enough for the time that you've spent with us today. And it's been such a pleasure having you here today.
Tina Bryson
Thank you so much for having me.
Jennifer Levin
I have had the pleasure of working with Tina as a colleague for many years and I am so unbelievably impressed with her as a person. Yes, she is extremely knowable in her field and beyond accomplished. But is it the way she relates to people, the relationships that she has built and way she lives her values and practices what she preaches the that stands out for me the most.
Tina provided us with so much wisdom today that bears repeating.
First, we as adults serve as meaning makers for children of all ages. Young children, teens and even our older children are going to look to us for guidance on how to interpret life events, especially the challenging ones. As adults, it is okay to display genuine, appropriate emotions in front of our children, but we need to communicate with them and more importantly, model how to regulate emotions and that there can still be safety in chaos. Children will look to us for reassurance and meaning in the trauma that has occurred and need to know that despite everything, they are safe and going to be okay.
Second, children and young people need the adults in their life when they are experiencing stress, and difficult life challenges especially the sudden or unexpected death of a loved one. However, they may not developmentally have the words to express their needs, or their behaviors may indicate otherwise. Many times, grief and pain in children is expressed in a manner that is not fun or easy to tolerate. And when this happens, you are the responsible adult may be in emotional pain and grief as well. However, there are opportunities for bonding and connection during these difficult moments. I cannot stress the importance and value of the 4 S’s that Tina shared as tools you now have available to use with children and teens. Make sure they feel safe, seen are soothed and secure during these difficult times to foster healing.
Third, when it comes to grief I high recommend adults release any expectations about you believe your children should react or behave in bereavement or mourning. Just let them be. Not with standing destructive or self-harming behaviors, children and teens will grieve in the manner they need. I encourage you to offer a safe space to process their feelings, ask questions or request additional help. When you let the grief occur in the context of this type of relationship they are more likely to safe, seen, secure and be soothed.
Finally – Give yourself grace and compassion and know that you are enough. Tina’s references to the attachment literature provides evidence that it only takes one caring, consistent, loving adult in a child’s life to contribute to the emotional well-being of healthy young adult.
Thank you so much for joining today’s episode of Untethered Healing the Pain After a Sudden Death. Our next podcast will be on Wednesday, June 21st with therapist Randie Clark who experienced the sudden death of her adult son and will talk about working with clients who have experienced an unexpected death of children at any age.
Our podcast Untethered is now hosted on my website therapyheals – To learn more about hope and guidance after sudden or unexpected death please visit therapyheals.com and sign up for my monthly newsletter Guidance in Grief at www.therapyheals.com. Bye for now.
