Jennifer Levin
Hi everyone and welcome to Untethered: Healing the pain from a sudden death. I am Dr. Jennifer Levin, and I specialize in traumatic death and helping individuals through the struggles, pain, trauma, and chaos of an unexpected death. In today’s podcast I interview the Reverend Dr. Pamela Blair, perhaps best known for the book she co-authored that was first published the year 2000 entitled “I Wasn’t Ready to Say Goodbye: Surviving, Coping & Healing after the sudden death of a loved one.” Dr. Blair is a retired psychotherapist who specialized in working individuals grieving the loss of a loved one especially after a sudden death. Although retired, Dr. Blair continues to lead grief support groups and write. In today’s podcast interview she shares her personal grief story, highlights the impact her book “I was not ready to say goodbye” had on those she worked with and explore excerpts from her new book – The Long Grief Journey. Together we delve into the concept of long-term grief, ways to cope with continued loss that occur throughout the grief continuum, how to experience happiness within the context of grief and the notion of holding hope during grief.
So welcome, Pam. I'm so glad that you're here with us today. And let me start off by asking you to tell us a little bit about yourself.
Pam Blair
Thanks for asking. It's nice to be here, Jen. I am a happily retired psychotherapist with a long career about, oh, 32 years officially. And I'm living in Vermont. I'm happily married now for about 38 years. And I say about because sometimes I forget to do the math, but I think it's 38 years. And I'm married to a wonderful guy. I have two children. And I have two cats. And my life, even in retirement is busy. Now how did that happen? So I continue to write books I, I host a grief support group for people. I'm mentoring the school system. I'm doing all kinds of things, Jen. And I was hoping I would just be sitting in a chair reading some good books, but that's not the case. I'm writing them instead,
Jennifer Levin
I actually hear that a lot from people that they're busier now in retirement than they were in their professional life. You have a long history working with individuals who have experienced sudden loss and traumatic grief. Can you share some of your career highlights?
Pam Blair
There are a lot of them. But the one that stands out the most is well, 911. And my publisher at the time who asked me to sign I think it was over 400 copies of I wasn't ready to say goodbye for the firefighters and police officers families, the men and women who perished, trying to save others. And then I had the privilege of working with some of the families afterwards, in my private office in Westchester County, which is just outside of New York City. And then one woman who I worked with who was coming up out of the subway that day, and she was on her merry way to work, and she hadn't heard anything was going on. And she walked up the subway stairs to a cloud of death coming at her. She was extremely traumatized. So I worked with her. And, and then of course, I'm retired and I have the privilege of volunteering, like I said to give workshops and hold a grief support group in my community. I could go on endlessly talking, but I know you have other questions.
Jennifer Levin
No, that's okay.
Pam Blair
That's one of the highlights I could go on about the highlights that happen to do with individual clients. And I'm not comfortable talking about that.
Jennifer Levin
Of course, of course. Are you comfortable sharing your own experiences with us about sudden or unexpected deaths that you have encountered in your life?
Pam Blair
Well, to me, this still spooks me out but my former husband died of a brain aneurysm. And six months later, my sister's husband died of the same exact brain aneurysm. And we went through the same experience of having to disconnect the life support. So my sister was my primary source of support. We supported each other in fact. I asked her to write some poetry for I wasn't ready to say goodbye, which she did. She talks about her own experience in that book, and which I wrote about and so I think that those two experiences really moved me into another place of understanding personally, what Sudden Death is about, what the complexities are, and and the enormous effects of sudden death on all of us. Because I'm a human being like the rest of your listeners. And I realized, wow, that's pretty intense.
Jennifer Levin
Absolutely. So you've, you've alluded to and talked about your book. And that's what I'd like to spend some time on. So one of the first things I do when I work with a client who's experienced a recent sudden or unexpected death is recommend your book. I wasn't ready to say goodbye, that you wrote with Brooke Noel. And I actually always say, I promise I do not get a kickback from this book. But I just think it's, you know, the best book out there for individuals who have experienced a sudden and unexpected loss. So, what you published this in 2000, what led you to write that book at that time?
Pam Blair
Well, for the last 23 years, the book has been selling, and we've updated it any number of times to make it more current. At the time, just before I was given the opportunity to write the book, I was publishing an eight page newsletter on divorce recovery, and the trauma that people go through divorce. And it was called Surviving Divorce. And in those days, it wasn't online. It was actual paper newsletter, and Brooke Noel happened to come across a copy of that newsletter because she was writing a book on single parenting, or writing a newsletter on single parenting, excuse me, and she said, wow, you know, you're a good writer. And she asked me to collaborate with her, not knowing that I had had a sudden death in my family. Her brother had died of anaphylactic shock from a bee sting. And interestingly, she really had no personal experience with sudden death before that, as most of us don't. And she was trying to find a book on the topic. And she said to me, have you found one? And I said, You know what, I haven't even looked, let me look. And there was nothing written on sudden death at that time, 23 years ago, there were books on you know how to be with somebody who was dying slowly. Or if you were dying slowly, the Kubler Ross stuff, of course, but nothing on the traumatic sudden death. So it immediately became a best seller. And I say that with some trepidation, because I'm sorry that it's a best seller, at the same time I'm delighted.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. So it became a best seller. Were you surprised?
Pam Blair
Yes. Because basically, Brooke and I were writing the book from, It wasn't from a clinical perspective. It was from a human experience of loss, and what we had learned by poking around and trying to find other things that had maybe been written on sudden loss. And what we just decided to do was just to focus in on our personal journeys. And, and my experience as a psychotherapist. Brooke is a journalist, and a good researcher, and I'm a psychotherapist. So it was a good combination of gifts, if you will.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah, absolutely. Now, you talked about obviously, the vital role it played in 911. What were some other examples over the 23 years now it's been in circulation, in how the book has been used or some ways in which you've seen the book make an impact. I mean, I can think of ways in how my clients have been like, you know, one of my neighbors and dear friend of mine, experienced a sudden death and I bought five copies and sent it to the house. I mean, what are some of the ways you've seen the book be used?
Pam Blair
I've gone to funerals, and I've seen people sitting there holding this book. I don't want to say like a Bible because that's a totally different thing. But just holding it and not not even being able to read it yet, because they were in such trauma. But so glad they had received it as a copy from somebody that cared enough about them to give it to them. So that was one thing and then I found out through my co-author, that it's being used and I can't think of the corporate or word for it, but for airlines during airline crashes that they distribute this book, free of cost to survivors families. Who have experienced their loved one dying in an airline crash. There are many more, but I just don't keep track.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. Yeah. When was the last time the book was updated?
Pam Blair
About two years ago, three years ago, before, everything is before COVID. Yeah, it was before COVID. So, and I went through it tooth and nail, and I just said, you know, we got to fix a couple of words in there. And, and now, it's being published by source books, Random House. So they have a whole team of editors working on things, which is wonderful. It's just getting better and better.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. So those of us who work in grief, truly understand the concept that grief is a long term journey. And I think I mentioned to you when we spoke earlier, that I use the analogy that grief is this uninvited lifelong roommate, when I work with my clients, and I often say okay, so what skills do you need to get along with your roommate, because they're here for the long haul? And which led me to reach out to you when I saw your new book, The Long grief journey. Because so many people, especially society at large will say, so are you over it yet? And your new book really addresses that that is not happening and so let's switch now to your new book. And that was just released in I believe, February of this year?
Pam Blair
Yes.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. So what led you to write this new book about long term grief?
Pam Blair
Well, again, my own experience, after George died, I feel very comfortable using his name because he's my guardian. Yes, my my former husband. Yeah. And I say former because at the time of his death, he, we were separated. And, in fact, I have to get more precise about that. I was actually remarried at that time. And I keep forgetting that for some reason. But anyway, I was happily remarried at that time. But George and I had remained very close friends. And we were we were raising two children, we needed to be there for each other. And I figured, well, I don't have you know, what was then when years ago, the love of my life, at least I have him as a friend. And that was great. And I felt so good about that. So after he died, so suddenly, I found myself grieving more than I would have expected. And I think that some of your listeners could relate to that the death of a former spouse.
Jennifer Levin
Yes, I'm so glad you're talking about that. Because people will question but we're not in a relationship anymore. So do I have that right?
Pam Blair
That's right. And that's disenfranchised grief, which is extremely painful. And I realized I had no support group to go to, there wasn't one for the loss of a former spouse. Okay. Although I still in my heart felt connected very connected to George, and in love with my husband at the same time. It was, and what added to that was that I was helping my children process this grief. So again, there was no place to go with it. And so I thought, well, you know, I'll get over it easier. Because after all, we were separated at the time. No, I did not get over it easier. Because as my children were developing and going through life, and all the wonderful, the baseball game where you would wish their father was there, and, and ultimately the wedding that you wish their father was there, the grief sort of percolated up again. And so I said, Man, I'm not the only one in this world going through this. And then there was a New York Times bestseller called After Grief, which a journalist wrote, and I thought, gee whiz, I think, and she addressed this somewhat, and I thought, hmm, yeah, but we need some professionals in there talking about this as well. So that's when I approached Brady Hanson to work with me on the long grief journey. So we could look at it from my personal experience and the research that was bubbling up about this. So that did that answer your question? I hope so.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. Define for our listeners of the podcast how do you define long term?
Pam Blair
Okay. Any grief that lasts long term, basically. And I don't mean to be facetious about that. However, you learn to live with with grief in some way. All right. And what I did with it was to transform the loss into some meaning of some kind and to, to give back so that I could move on easier and to maintain a connection with George. So he's become my guardian angel, especially when it comes to the children. So I might just close my eyes. And here it is. I mean, my son was 12 years old at the time of George's death. And he's now 41, and has a child my grandchild, and I will close my eyes and say, hey, George, I know you're there somewhere. I can't define where. But I'd like to know that you're still around to help me out with these kids. All right. And it's a wonderful way to keep the good energy going. But first, I had to work through the hard stuff. And then long term grief is basically non integrated grief that gets in the way, sometimes of living one's life fully and can need, in some cases, attention by a mental health professional.
Jennifer Levin
What does that look like? Non integrated grief? Can you be more specific so someone can understand that that's something they're struggling with?
Pam Blair
Yeah, coming up against blocks that keep you from living fully. All right, because you're still and I hate to use the word still, that's a wrong word. But that, that you're, you're having these moments where you just don't know how to move on. And, and one of the reasons why I chose, I went through a lot of book covers for this thing. And I wanted it to be a fluid path, knowing that's what I'm describing the front cover of the book, a fluid path towards some kind of light at the end. So long term grief is fluid, it can come and go like a wave. However, when it gets in the way of you really living your life to the fullest. That's, that's really, that's a problem. And it can need an intervention of some kind.
Jennifer Levin
So, what are some of the things that you think listeners need to know about long term grief, some of the things that you talk about in your book, so many.
Pam Blair
Number one, have compassion for yourself and lose the judgment. If it's five years out, and you're still bumping up against a block or two that's keeping you from moving forward. Or you're still feeling a pang. I call it an ambush of grief. And I had a bad ambush, when my son was graduating from high school, and I had wished that George was sitting beside me to see how proud we had become and how well Ian did in his journey. So I was ambushed. So I was crying. And I looked around at other people, and they're all applauding and everything and for their kids, and I'm crying. But I didn't judge myself, because I had enough wherewithal at that point, to just let the tears come. So have compassion for yourself and lose the judgment. And you will be ambushed by sorrow from time to time, depending on the relationship you had, and whether or not you have children, or any number of factors. And number two, I think it's extremely important and healing to maintain some kind of connection to your loved one, because as a great philosopher once said, or maybe it was me, I don't know, death may end a life but it doesn't end the relationship. So keeping the relationship going is not patho, it's not a pathology that needs medication.
Jennifer Levin
Absolutely not.
Pam Blair
You agree, don't you?
Jennifer Levin
Absolutely. And I'm a huge fan. Anyone who's worked with me or heard me before, knows that I'm a huge fan of continuing bonds.
Pam Blair
Good. Yes. That's the word, isn't it?
Jennifer Levin
Yes. that's word I use.
Pam Blair
I think, Kessler, was it Kessler, who came up with that?
Jennifer Levin
No, And I'm, I'll put it in the show notes. I want to say, Klaus, no I could be wrong. The researchers who and it actually it came out in the year 1992 when the book or the research on continuing bonds. I'll make a note to put that in the show notes about the reference on who started continuing bonds.
Pam Blair
Good. That's really a helpful way of putting it. I call it continuing connection. But however you say it, it's it works. Yeah. Okay. I think I answered your question.
Jennifer Levin
You did. So you make a statement. Really early on in the book, it's actually on page 41, which is that people don't know how to let grief and life exist at the same time. And I just love that. And I was wondering if you could elaborate on this.
Pam Blair
Okay. Um, I actually going to read a couple of sentences from the book, if you don't mind. Because I think it really says that succinctly. We need to be, we need a way to be with grief and talk about grief that is not pathologizing, pressure inducing, shaming, or inhumane. We need to bring into the light, the fact that grief affects a whole life for the remainder of that life. And this fact is neither good nor bad. It just is. And then I, I wrote an exercise for folks to be with their grief. And I think I wrote it in both, I put it in both books. And that is to set aside time to grieve. Each day, five minutes, 15 minutes to either meditate or journal, have your tears and then go pick up the kids at school, or get out into your community and do something. Ultimately, of course, I feel we need to do the work of finding some meaning in our loss, which can also help with the long journey.
Jennifer Levin
Yes, absolutely. I mean, what I love about that is that you don't have to be in either. You don't have to stop living to grieve. You can do both at the exact same time.
Pam Blair
And you have to, well, I say have to. But yeah, if the kids need to be picked up from school, and you have too many tears in your eyes, you really shouldn't be driving. So you know, that type of thing. You still have to sort of make your bed and do the dishes and pay the bills.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. But I'd even like to take it a step further that you can get to a place in your life when you can experience happiness and joy within the context of grief.
Pam Blair
Please. In fact, I I say this to my grief support group find a time to laugh this week. Look, find a stupid movie or, you know, tickle. Have your kids tickle you or something but find a way to laugh. Because you're allowed to. And some people need permission.
Jennifer Levin
Yes, absolutely. Or they feel guilty when they do.
Pam Blair
That's right. And people walk in with guilt into the group. And that's the first thing out of some, that they say is Oh, gosh, I feel so guilty this week. And I'll ask them why? And they'll say, well, because I had a really good time on Saturday.kay. I'm glad you did.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. Yeah. I work with so many clients who are stuck. And I think that's the word you use in the book in their grief and trauma. And then they just encounter so many more I'm going to use the word mini losses, and sometimes they're not so mini while they're grieving, and therefore they perceive themselves as unable to invest in their future, because they realize that at any moment, everything can still be taken away. So I'm curious, how do you or did you help clients cope with these continued mini losses, and sometimes major losses, that they continued to experience in their life while they're grieving the sudden and unexpected death, it almost seems cruel?
Pam Blair
Yeah. Ah, well, first of all, I tell them that, yeah, there's always going to be something that you can't predict. It's always going, something's always going to happen. So validating for them that this is the life journey, that we can't always predict everything. And then if they get really stuck in the why bothers and that's what I call it, the why bothers, I try to help them move towards meaning making, which is a very difficult transition for some people. And another way to find meeting, meaning, excuse me, might be to consider helping others who are also grieving, by volunteering to babysit for a woman whose husband just died or something, getting involved in the community in some way, giving back to the community by getting them to see their value, because they're helping others. And then I also wrote about a technique that I used to use where they visualize and dialogue with the block that's keeping them from moving forward. So actually materializing in their mind, what the block might look like. And I was just, I worked with somebody in the grief group the other day, who saw it as a giant boulder. And so I had her take, I took her through the steps of visualizing pushing on it, and what does it feel like? And what would it feel like it if it were just a little bit smaller, and then push again, and then see it a little bit smaller. And this is done, of course, in a therapeutic setting, and it can take almost an hour. But I did a mini version of it for the group this week. And it seemed to work. In fact, what she said was, her boulder wasn't just a boulder. It had prickly thorns on it. And so I began to have her visualize and imagine the thorns falling away. So it's not an easy one, when somebody's really attached to their block. It's not easy but if they can visualize it, and some people can't, they just they just just don't feel like they have that ability. And that's a block in itself. But we try.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. To meet our clients where they are. Yeah. Your new book is extremely comprehensive. And covers so many topics that I see clients struggle with in long-term grief, loneliness, discovering new identities, guilt, and regret, and so on. This is one of the things I wanted to ask you to talk about today was also hope, and finding hope for the future. Because, you know, related to the being stuck, finding hope is an area where I see clients struggle, and I'm curious how you help clients find hope.
Pam Blair
Well, moving on from the grip of grief is tough. And finding hope is not easy. And maybe you don't know where to begin. But I think we can be intentional about looking for hope, especially as the world expresses it around us, for instance, hope is what I see in the groups I counsel is they observe others who are moving along the path of grief. So they may be fresh and new at it. And then observe somebody who is three years beyond them in terms of the grief journey, and say, wow, look at what you're doing. And so they gained some hope that way. Also, I need to talk about Rob for a minute, and I'm not using his real name. He comes to the group or he used to, he was grieving a child he had lost 10 years ago as an infant, okay. And he didn't think there was any hope of getting past his grief because it was already 10 years, and he was judging himself very harshly. And the group supported him in listening to that journey. And to the point where he doesn't have to, he doesn't come anymore, because he felt the group being so supportive of him grieving that long for the loss of his child. So I see hope in that way. And I also truly and 100% believe that hope can be found simply by looking around one at nature. And immersing oneself in its healing benefits. I live in northern Vermont, as you know, where spring struggles like heck to emerge every year. And when I felt at my lowest, I would look at the dead trees and bushes that surround me in my yard and, and how they push hard to come out of their winter sleep. And I think of the little I'm gonna use a funny term. I think those little turd like bulbs that you plant in the fall, as an example of hope as they push their way up to greet the sun. And almost every person in the grief support group I facilitate walks in the magnificent woods here. In fact, I think I'm going to lead a group doing that because well, they do it on their own, but I'm thinking of leading it by setting an intention as we walk and they report back on the healing and peace and support they've experienced and quietude and nature. Nature is a pretty cool healer.
Jennifer Levin
It really is.
Pam Blair
Yeah, so that's some of the ways that I have hope.
Jennifer Levin
Well, those are beautiful ways. So, in closing today, what advice would you give to someone who's brand new, and has just experienced a sudden and unexpected death? I know I would tell them to buy your book.
Pam Blair
Thank you.
Jennifer Levin
While I have you here with us, what are some words of wisdom that you would share with us today?
Pam Blair
Don't judge yourself too harshly. If the loss was yesterday, or years ago. In the beginning, you'll feel crazy for a while. Period. You'll feel crazy. You will feel like life or God or the Universe has given you the most difficult thing in the world to bear and the acute pain, just know this, that the acute pain of loss disorganizes us, presents us at the same time with an opportunity to create a new life, a new way of being. And you can't see that gift in the very beginning. You just cannot see that. But the gift that this life changing experience has within it is profound. And mostly you're not alone. Be intentional and find a community to grieve with. And if there's none in your community, start one. Read my books, and start one. And I'd like to end with a poem that I wrote for the book. If I can find it. Here it is. It's called, A New Day. A new day happens unannounced begins the unending loss and gain with cries, with pain, asking us to bend, breaking us open, heartache, unspoken screaming the unanswerable. Inviting us come this way. We walk in darkness toward the light of hope from hopelessness. A new day awaits. That's my philosophy right there.
Jennifer Levin
Thank you. Dr. Pamela Blair, I cannot thank you enough for your time today. You have contributed to the field and the literature two amazing books on sudden and unexpected death. And I appreciate your wisdom and your guidance and you sharing your time today with listeners about your experiences and your resources. So thank you.
Pam Blair
Thank you, Jen. Thank you.
Jennifer Levin
As I mentioned in the interview, Pamela’s book, I Wasn’t Ready to Say Goodbye, has been the most consistent resource I recommend to any client who has recently experienced a sudden or unexpected death. After 23 years, and several updates, this book remains a comprehensive guide for individuals and families who are living with a sudden death and provides information on different types of loss, for different family members at different points of time.
I also mentioned how excited I was to see Pamela’s book about the Long Grief Journey. I repeatedly bear witness to the pain and grief those living with the aftermath of sudden and unexpected have to endure. It truly is a long-term journey. Friends, family and society at large are seldomly aware of the long-term consequences and that the grief never truly goes away. Yes, it does change and evolve but the support from others often dissipates along the journey often due a lack of understanding of what the long term grief experience is really like. The Long Term Journey written by Pamela Blair and Co Author Bradie McCabe Hansen is an excellent resource that covers so many of the challenges long-term grievers encounter and provides exercises you use to work through many of the areas where you may be feeling stuck.
In today’s podcast interview, I really liked what Pamela had to say about hope when it comes to grief, and I found her thoughts consistent with the way a traumatic death changes us in general. For example, as you know, after the experience of a sudden death, most people experience changes in their core and no longer interact or view the world in the same manner. Little remains the same in your life after you experience a sudden or unexpected death. So many people have trouble finding hope again after a sudden death. It makes sense that you may now need to view the concept of hope differently after your loss. Perhaps you may need to find hope in different things than you used too. Pamela talked about finding hope in the support you get from family, friends or support group members. She also talked about finding hope in new growth in nature.
Her thoughts brought me back to the interview I had with Kim Cantin who described finding happiness in new, simpler things in life, mainly with connections to people where she experienced joy in their presence. I encourage those of you struggling to find hope in your life right now after the devastating sudden loss of a loved one to examine how you are defining hope. Perhaps you are still using definitions of hope from the life you lived prior to your unexpected death. It may be time to redefine your concept of “hope” in a way that matches your current experiences.
It was such an honor to interview Dr. Blair for today’s podcast. I have long since admired her work and was delighted when she responded to my email invitation for the interview. I want to thank her for her time and for sharing her personal and clinical experiences with listeners.
If you want an opportunity to connect with Dr. Pamela Blair please join our Facebook group “Talking about the Podcast Untethered with Dr. Levin.” The Facebook group for this week’s podcast also contains the reference for the book on continuing bonds discussed in this podcast by Dr. Denis Klaus information about continuing bonds as well Dr. Blairs website and information about her new book – The Long Grief Journey.
Thank you so much for joining today’s episode of Untethered Healing the Pain After a Sudden Death.
Our next podcast will be on June 7th, and will feature Dr. Tina Payne Bryson, LCSW, PhD, Founder and CEO of The Center for Connection; author of New York Times Bestsellers The Whole-Brain Child & No-Drama Discipline. Our podcast is now hosted on my website www.therapyheals.com – To learn more about hope and guidance after sudden or unexpected death please visit therapyheals.com and sign up for my monthly newsletter Guidance in Grief at www.therapyheals.com.
