Jennifer Levin
Hi everyone and welcome to Untethered: Healing the pain from a sudden death. I am Dr. Jennifer Levin, and I specialize in traumatic death and helping individuals through the struggles, pain, trauma, and chaos of an unexpected death.
Today’s podcast is like our last one in that it is also anonymous in nature, however the story could not be more different. Our interview today is with an older woman, whose son suddenly died in January of 2022 from COVID. At the time of this recording, the CDC estimated that a total of 1,123,613 Americans has now died from COVID and many think these numbers highly underestimate the actual numbers of people who die from COVID related causes. As I am sure many of you know and you will hear from our guest today, early on, when someone died from COVID, it not only complicated the grieving process but it logistically made it difficult to be with loved ones that you wanted comfort and support from during the pain of grief.
So why don't you start us off today and tell us a little bit about yourself and your family.
Interviewee
Okay, well, I've been a single parent since my boys were five and two. And my oldest son is turning 50 next week and my younger son was 45 when he died last year. My oldest son lives in Pennsylvania with his dear wife and their three children, all under 10. And my son in law, the husband of my son who died, lives in New York with their two children, one of whom was born seven months after my son died. I've lived in the Southern California area all my life, went to college nearby. So I have deep roots here, as do my children for growing up here. I've attended the same church for over 60 years and am fairly active in our community. I've worked in healthcare my whole career and still work part time with some support groups with various illnesses. So I'm fortunate to have quite a few people around whom I've known for a long time. It's tough being so far away from my family, that I fortunately am able to go there three to four to five times a year, except for COVID, of course, there was a big space but now I'm trying to get back on schedule for that.
Jennifer Levin
So before we get into the heavy details of what happened to your son, and your grief experience, can you share with us why you wanted today's interview to be anonymous in nature?
Interviewee
Well, I've wanted this to be anonymous out of respect for my immediate family. My son in law, the husband of my younger son who died, is a very private person, and as are my son and daughter in law, in their own way. And my younger son who died was quite well known nationally in his field. And as are kind of my son in law and my other son and family, and I just felt it would be an invasion of their privacy if I used their names. So I will be talking about my older son and my younger son, my son in law, and my daughter in law.
Jennifer Levin
Okay, well, I'm just very glad that you still felt comfortable coming and sharing your story. And I'm in any way just glad that you're willing to be here today. So if you can take us back and talk to us about the day that your son died.
Interviewee
Okay, that's a tough one. Early in the morning of January 4, last year 2022. I received a call from my son in law in New York who told me that my son had had a cardiac arrest and was at New York Presbyterian in ICU and was unconscious. My son in law's voice was very shaky, and he said, I am so scared. Just the week before there were 17 members of our family who had been together for Christmas. This was January 4. My son had minor sniffles, and a slight cough, but we also had eight children all under nine. And there were other sniffles and coughs around, so we didn't think much about it. My younger son and son in law were also testing for COVID Every single day because they had an 18 month old daughter, and they certainly didn't want her to get COVID. We had also all tested before we came together three days before that. And my son really seemed okay. He was healthy. He was physically fit. He was vaccinated. Taking all the proper precautions. And during the time that we were together, my son and his husband had a celebration to announce to us that they were expecting their second child who was a little boy, that was due in August. We were thrilled and excited. A couple of days later, we all left to return to our various places where we lived across the country. So, to have this news five days later so totally unexpected was a shock. I was the first person my son in law called, I in turn called my other son just two hours away in Philadelphia. And within an hour, he and my daughter in law had found a friend to take care of their three children. And they were on their way to New York, to be with my son and my son in law. And they arrived at the hospital about 10 minutes after my son had died. A few minutes after they arrived, which was about four hours after that first call, I was kind of waiting here that whole time for some kind of word. My older son called me and told me with such a gentle voice that I remember to this day, that my younger son, his brother, had passed away and was in the arms of Jesus. I yelled into the phone no, no, no. And I think I actually dropped the phone. I found out later that day that my younger son did have COVID in spite of testing negative, the whole two weeks before. He kind of not felt good the night before and went to urgent care that morning of the fourth and collapsed at the door of urgent care with a cardiac arrest. He never, never regained consciousness, although he was revived nine times over the next couple of hours. Earlier that morning, I'd called several friends, all of who knew my sons and their families, to be praying. And I now called them again to tell them that he had died. I heard the shock in their voices that I had in mine, it was impossible. Unbelievable. No, it hasn't happened. I had COVID myself and I could not be in close contact with anyone. I live in a senior community. But my friends came to my front lawn within an hour and gathered around and prayed for me as I stayed up on my steps. So I felt their support, even though I couldn't hug or be close to anyone. And then the rest of that day was spent talking to my older son, calling my son's friends having them form a telephone tree. And it's kind of a blur, and it was so numbing and impossible to believe that I don't remember actually all the details of that particular day.
Jennifer Levin
Oh, my goodness. When did you find out that you had COVID.
Interviewee
That was about two days after I returned from New York. So that was about three days before, he only had symptoms for like 12 hours where he felt really bad. And they had been testing every day, like I said, and it was always negative. And then in the hospital, he did test positive. So that's just a mystery to us why his body collapsed so quickly with a cardiac arrest. And some of the COVID was even in his organs a little bit already. So that remains a mystery, but one that we are learning to live with.
Jennifer Levin
How would you describe your early grief experiences? I know you said, you know, you can't even remember some things.
Interviewee
The early grief, of course, was shock. I think we lived on shock for the next couple of weeks. Unbelief. I was physically nauseated when I would think about it. I couldn't leave to go back east because of COVID. And it turned out to be 11 days, before I could go back and even be with my family. I was not really sick. It was like a bad cold. So it wasn't that I was sick other than I kept testing positively. And in the meantime, we had to postpone any memorial service back there or anything else. Because we couldn't do anything, obviously, until I got back there. But not being able to be back there with family. And being isolated here was just really, really difficult. Because people couldn't come and be with me at all. We did realize we were going to need to have two memorial services, one back there where he had worked for 18 years for the same company and then one out here because there were so many friends and having lived here all my life a lot of people knew my kids and everything else. So that was hard because they were five weeks apart. And so we kind of felt during this early grief that we almost had to put it on hold a bit so that we just wouldn't collapse and not be able to do the next service. So we were absolutely touched by all the people that came and everything else. But it was a tough time. In some ways I felt bereft and alone, even in the midst of friends. None of them had lost a child so I couldn't expect them to understand what was going on. But, and then before this, I didn't know that there were different kinds of grief. As much as I've worked in healthcare, I didn't realize it, all I had experienced was anticipatory grief, through the more lingering death of my parents and, and other friends. I had a few friends who's experienced tramatic grief. But until you experience it, you really don't know what it is. So this traumatic sudden grief was such a body blow, and such a mind and emotional blow, that I didn't understand a lot of what was going on, I actually wanted to go to bed and sleep so I could escape the pain. But on the other end, I didn't want to wake up to this new reality. So it was just a very strange and new and unknown experience. I worried about my son in law, about my son and his wife, as well as the grandchildren. Being a mother, I kind of wanted to Mother them and take the pain away. But I couldn't even really understand my own pain. So it was just hard to keep that communication going long distance.
Jennifer Levin
So you're actually the first person that I've interviewed in my podcast that's experienced the death of a loved one from COVID. And your son truly died suddenly, from COVID. How did the pandemic, the lock down, all of the restrictions impact your total grieving experience? You just talked about like, what happened right after your son died. But in terms of, you know, your entire grieving experience, and I know it's not over, neither COVID or your grief. But talk a little bit about that.
Interviewee
Well, initially, and still, I have felt robbed by COVID. And angry, angry at COVID. Especially because, you know, I feel it killed my son. And also that in the midst of that I couldn't be back east because of COVID. I felt robbed, I couldn't be with the rest of my family. I felt isolated, and throughout living in a senior community, and we, at that time, had a health care center here. So we were under extra restrictions because we were under the health department of where I live. And so we could not have visitors for a long time, we had to limit our contact, certainly with each other. And so there was a lot of, of isolation. Now, I'm an introvert, so some of that was okay. But there's a certain amount when you're grieving or going through things where you would like to have a pat on the shoulder, or a hug. And some of that was not possible. Certainly, when I had COVID. It was, actually the first hug I had after he died was from my son in law from his husband, because as soon as I was cleared by urgent care, that I didn't have COVID anymore, I caught the next plane back to New York and landed and my son in law met me. And that was the first hug in 12 days that I had afterwards. So the isolation and all the restrictions of COVID with you know, just having to think and everybody's going through this having to think about masks, do I wear one or do I not? What, you know, what rules are there here, etcetera. So it was just a tough time. And good friends here that aren't in the community where I live, but around the area. I couldn't see them because we couldn't have any visitors. So it was really very much a sense of isolation, and difficult. It's much more relaxed now and I feel more comfortable flying and everything else. But that was even a huge concern, because I would fly back there. And then I didn't want to be with the baby, the year and a half old baby or toddler at that age, because I didn't want to take anything to her. So I stayed with my Philadelphia family for seven days until I certainly didn't have anything going on. So there were a lot of logistics that made life difficult, and still do in some ways. At Christmas, I was with the family back there also, but never did get up to New York to see my son in law and the new baby, because I had a cold. And with the children in Philadelphia being older, they had more immunity. So luckily, my now two year old daughter of my son in law, and my son, she was able to come down and be with us in Philadelphia for a little bit. So that was special. But there are still those kinds of restrictions and concerns that we have, because the little baby is only eight months old now. It's still impacting certainly.
Jennifer Levin
Absolutely. Yeah. I hope you don't mind. My little Winnie, my dog, is snoring gently as we're talking.
Interviewee
I can't hear it. But I can imagine, she's so cute.
Jennifer Levin
So we know, gosh, grief is so isolating and COVID just made it so much more isolating for you. Besides the isolation, what are some of the other challenges that you struggled with, that you faced while grieving the death of your son?
Interviewee
Ah, that's a tough one. Well, the death of my son has kind of been a wrenching alteration of expectations. I mean, it's those shattered assumptions that you have talked about in another podcast, we just kind of assume that this person is going to be there, this person is going to watch his children grow up, he's going to be with his soulmate, his husband, I'm going to be able to watch both my sons with their families, be together in a new relationship, both being fathers and everything else. That's not there. The dreams are shattered. And it's kind of, it's almost an unconscious thing at first. And then when I realized, gosh, you know, everybody's dreams of being with my younger son and watching him, you know, over all these years being with him, those are all shattered. Another thing is, we all need to be building a new relationship with my son in law, because my son was always in the midst of that one also. My son in law is a different person, my son used to communicate quite regularly, my son in law doesn't so much, but that's who he is. And that's how, we've had to be careful not to lay the "normal expectations" on him. So it's a new, it's a new dynamic there. It's actually a new dynamic with my older son and his wife and the grandchildren. My son, my younger son was such a presence, when he was there. And loved to celebrate people, was there for people when they needed him and everything else. And to not have that now it does, it does ask us to be in a new way with each other that we never certainly expected to be. And then for me knowing how to be there for my son in law, and actually my son and my daughter in law. We're all going through our grief differently. We're different people. It's a different process. It's a different moving in and out for each of us. We aren't all in the same place at the same time. And it's learning to grieve together but individually and honoring, honoring where we each are and not having any shoulds in there but that's a new, that's certainly a new area to navigate for all of us. And these are all ongoing processes. These are not completed in any way but someone is missing in our lives and always will be.
Jennifer Levin
Absolutely, yeah. I know you're a person of faith. How did your faith or how does your faith help you through your grief?
Interviewee
Oh, well, I believe in eternal life, I believe God has given us this gift and this hope. And that's the very biggest gifts of my life. I know my son is with Jesus. But in my humanity, to be honest, I want my son here. I want him here. I want to talk with him. I want to hear his dreams, I want to see him with his children. A question is sometimes asked, you know, how could God do this? How could God take him away? And I don't believe that God caused his death. I've never been one to believe that. Or it's been said to me, God wanted him in heaven. So that's why he took him now, I don't believe that's true. I don't believe God really wants us to go through this terrible pain and suffering, but we do. But I do believe so strongly that Jesus is with us in the midst of the pain, and that he weeps with us in this mystery of why there are questions that we'll never know the answer to, but I feel that that's part of faith is leaving those questions with God and kind of moving ahead without absolutely knowing those answers. So it's been a, you know, the absolute basis for all of our family.
Jennifer Levin
It sounds like that's provided you a very strong foundation.
Interviewee
Yes. Through this, right.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. What did you try? Or how are you coping with your grief now?
Interviewee
Oh, okay.
Jennifer Levin
I realized those are a couple of questions in one.
Interviewee
That's okay. It's an ongoing process. And I've come to realize that it's not something, I think one of the main things I've come to realize, which was kind of in the middle of the first year, is that one does not move through grief, because that, for me implies an end. And I don't think there will ever be an end. It may change in intensity, but it won't end. I don't believe one moves on from grief, which has been said to me, can't you move on. Because that implies that you put it behind you. And my grief is in relationship to how much I love my son. And I'm not going to put that behind me and move on from it. So I've kind of decided that, that one moves with the grief, which sometimes seems one step forward, and two steps back, or sideways or upside down, or wherever it might take you. Grief, I've really learned is not linear, it is not one step and then another step. I've always been one to journal. So that has really helped to write down especially when I was feeling so isolated. To write down, sometimes my journaling would be directed toward my son. And sometimes it's directed toward God. And so it just it varies kind of all over the place. But journaling, that's been a real help. Reading has been a real help reading has helped to validate where I am. Reading about others experiences of people who've lost a child. At first I was in a real fog. That fog lasted for six months. And this is not me. I'm an organizer. I can solve problems. I do details. I was in the committee meeting that I had called, which is one of the ineffective things I'll talk about in a minute. I was in a committee meeting about six weeks after my son had died. And about halfway through, I couldn't take it anymore. There were so many details being expressed and needed and everything else. So I excused myself from the meeting. And I luckily had somebody that took over but I would find I would suddenly be unable to cope with something. Almost a panic attack but not quite. And I'm in therapy. I've been in grief therapy with Jennifer for eight months. And that has been so so so helpful. I didn't know about traumatic grief before Jennifer and I started meeting. Jennifer, you've always given me action steps of something to do at the end of each session and pointed out things that I didn't realize were going on and challenged me in that way. And so that's been a help more than I can say. And then I do have, I do have a very good friend who actually lost her son three months after I lost mine. And we've kind of had our own group therapy session once or twice a week through all this. And one thing I have discovered when I'm in pain or sadness, once I face that, and kind of deal with what's going on, if I go out and do something for someone else, it kind of re engages me with the world. And either, and I may just write a letter or a note, or I may go do something for someone else, whatever it might be, but it kind of helps to move out of that a little. And my last thing is that I've been collecting rocks as a memorial to my son that I will put in my front yard, and they're from friends of his that were in different places with him. So they've gotten rocks from those areas and painted them lovely. And so that to have something kind of physical, as a memorial to him has been really good.
Jennifer Levin
You alluded to that there were some things you tried that were ineffective.
Interviewee
Yes. One is in the beginning. When someone would ask me how I was doing, I would kind of tell them. And I discovered pretty soon on, that not everybody really wants to hear how you're doing, not that you cover it and say I'm fine. You know, that typical answer we have. But I would say something like I discovered afterwards, I'm doing okay, today. Or I would even say well, today, it's not a good day, but I'm plugging through, I would not really go into detail unless they pressed and I knew that they really wanted to hear. They were out of their kindness asking, you know, identifying that I'm struggling. But I didn't, I don't need a whole lot of people to know exactly where I am or what I'm doing. But I, I was aware that I would be probably saying too much. So that was something. The other one was being really careful about what I get back into as far as previous activities. Some I've chosen not to do anymore, because they require too much right now. But I'm one to kind of go in and solve the problem. And I'm, I'm not volunteering to do that as much as I used to. I'm realizing I need to take care of where I am so I can be better with other people. And if I'm not doing that, then that doesn't work out so well.
Jennifer Levin
For better or worse, grief is quite the teacher.
Interviewee
Yes, indeed it is.
Jennifer Levin
How has the death of your son impacted your identity, or your role as a mother?
Interviewee
Okay. Well, part of me is missing. There's no doubt about it, I have a bracelet on my wrist that I got soon after my son died. It says a piece of my heart lives in heaven. And that's really true. There's a piece of my heart that's missing. I think as mothers when we birth our children. That's, that's a piece of us that is living. And now that piece is no longer living, at least here on Earth. So there's a piece that's missing. There are always those questions meeting someone new, How many children do you have? What do they do? Where do they live? At first, I honestly wondered, and this sounds weird, perhaps. But I wondered, okay, I have one child living. Am I still a mother to two children? It just it just sounds kind of silly. But my friend had that same question.
Jennifer Levin
A lot of people do.
Interviewee
And it's just sounds funny, but not funny, but it just doesn't sound right. But it didn't last long. But that question was certainly there. And now I know, I will always answer I have two children, because I still do. And sometimes I'll explain more. And sometimes I won't. It just depends on where it goes from there. It's very situational. And so and I think now I can kind of intuit who to talk to and who not to. So I think as we live with this, we're kind of aware as I said before, of who really wants to know. And you know, and if someone asks, what do they do and I haven't explained that first, I will say something like, well, one of my son's passed away last year from COVID but we're doing okay and then my other son does... So I get it out there because it would be really awkward if later in the conversation it was found out and I hadn't said anything. But then I kind of move on. So again, if they're really interested, they'll go back to it. But if they aren't, then I've said enough, and we go on.
Jennifer Levin
So you figured out a way to navigate that where you're comfortable.
Interviewee
Yes. And I think a couple of the other things, I feel so much more deeply connected to the suffering in the world. I'll read a story or hear on the news, you know, of, of loss, and it hurts more. I can't put it any other way. It does hurt more. But I also consciously want to be more present in each moment with who I'm with. And just know that I just treasure, treasure those moments. And, you know, I want to enjoy the world. My son enjoyed the world and to honor him, as well as be there for my friends and family, I want to enjoy, enjoy life.
Jennifer Levin
What a way to honor him.
Interviewee
Yeah, that's kind of what we all feel, I think.
Jennifer Levin
Yeah. So in closing, what advice would you give to other mothers who are grieving the sudden death or loss of their child, especially an adult child?
Interviewee
Well, the loss is intense. It's upside down, it's not supposed to happen this way. You know, we give birth, they are a part of us. Everybody's different. And I've been experiencing this for 14 months. But I think one thing is to not compare your grief to anyone else's, we are all in our own spot. And where we are is where we are supposed to be and to work with that. We are each unique in how we experience, we're unique in our relationship with our child. And I think we need to recognize that. Learn who you can talk with, and who is not good for you to talk with. And that's not to shun people. It's just, it depends on how much you reveal to those people. And I would say you will have people give unsolicited advice, and shoulds. And my advice there would be don't absorb their comments, just to have almost a little shield in front of you, in a sense. They are where they are with their experience with grief. And that is not where you are. And there are no shoulds there just aren't. And that's that's hard in our world of performing and producing and everything else. So that, you know, that is certainly one of the best lessons is that there are no shoulds, there's no right way, where you are is the right way for you.
Jennifer Levin
That's very well said. What about for those moms such as yourself? Who were unable to be present? You know, with their children when they died. That's gotta be so difficult.
Interviewee
That's a tough one. And I'm not absolutely sure where I am with that. I am a very visual person. And I really feel for my younger son's husband, my older son and his wife who were there with my son after he had died, they were there in the hospital. And he was still in the bed. That, that is a visual that I can kind of invent if I want to but I wasn't there. For me personally, my last memory with my son was in the midst of his big bear hug. He's six foot four, long arms and he would just envelop me in a bear hug. A lot of people not just me, but that's my last image and my last visual image of my son when we left at Christmas and when I said I'll see you in a couple months. I personally would rather be left with that image than the image of him lying in the bed. When my father died, I did see him and he had been ravaged by cancer and everything else. It was 10 months before I could get rid of that image in my head. So for me I, I mean, I know that I know, in my belief system that my son was not there. So for me, it's it was kind of okay. But I know that is so, so individual also.
Jennifer Levin
Sometimes that can actually be a blessing.
Interviewee
Yeah. In my case, I think it was,
Jennifer Levin
Okay. Anything else you'd like to add?
Interviewee
Oh, I think maybe the last thing would be is to be gentle with yourself. Give yourself grace when doing things, it's a new world. Nothing will ever be the same again. It's hard to decide how to get back into life. All I've talked about, as I said, it's still in process for me. I know that I am building a new life around the hole that's in my heart. The edges were very sharp at first. Now the edges have softened a bit. But that hole is always going to be there. And so I think being gentle and giving yourself grace are two key things that I keep trying to do.
Jennifer Levin
Well, thank you so much for sharing with us today. And it's very encouraging to hear that the holes and the edges are softening.
Interviewee
Thank you very much.
Jennifer Levin
Again, I appreciate your time and everything that you've shared.
Today’s podcast guest was one of the millions of people in the United States who has been impacted by the death of a loved one from COVID. She provided us with an up-close look at how COVID impacts a family and more specifically how the death of a child at any age is devastating for a mother. Through her grief work, our guest shared how she is continuing to learn how to navigate her needs as a grieving mother and how to renegotiate the relationship dynamics with her son in law, remaining child, and grandchild. The geographic distance between her family, the restrictions of COVID and the absence of her son who initiated the majority of family interactions added to the complexity of her situation and the isolation that often accompanies grief. As our interviewee mentioned, we had the opportunity to work together for a point in time during her grief. In addition to therapy, she was very engaged in writing, reading about grief, personal reflection and giving back to others as additional forms of therapeutic healing. She was invested in understanding her pain, the pain of her family and committed to figure out ways to best honor and meet the needs of the entire family unit that was grieving. As a mother, I can begin to imagine the unbearable magnitude of grief associated with the death of a child at any age. It was a gift to work with a woman so dedicated to be open and vulnerable with in her pain and willing to share her story in service of helping other mothers and especially anyone who has experienced the sudden and unexpected death of a loved one to COVID.
If you want an opportunity to connect with today’s guest, please join our facebook group “Talking about the Podcast Untethered with Dr. Levin.” If you post a question or message and we help facilitate communication between you and our podcast guest.
Our next podcast episode will be on Wednesday April 12th and will be the first of a two-part interview with Kim Cantin, who is the author of the upcoming book – Where the Yellow Flowers Grow, Kim is going is share the story of the sudden and unexpected death of her husband and son who died in the Montecito mudslides near Santa Barbara CA in January of 2018.
Thank you so much for joining today’s episode of Untethered Healing the Pain After a Sudden Death. For help with a sudden and unexpected loss, sign up for my free mini course, where I will teach you about the 3 Truths About Living With A Sudden and Unexpected Loss. Please visit www.fromgrieftogrowth.com to sign up.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
