Jennifer Levin
Hi everyone and welcome to Untethered: Healing the pain from a sudden death. I am Dr. Jennifer Levin, and I specialize in traumatic death and helping individuals through the struggles, pain, trauma, and chaos of an unexpected death.
In today’s podcast I interview Cindi Sinnema, A Chaplain who lives on Whidbey Island in Puget Sound. Cindi has an extensive backing working with individuals who have experienced grief and loss. She has provided crisis support for many survivors of natural disasters including Hurricane Katrine and other major fires and floods. She provides training for first responders who interact with families and loved ones in major crises and spiritual counseling for individuals who are grieving primarily after a sudden death.
Welcome Cindy, can you start off by telling us a little bit about yourself?
Cindi Sinnema
Yes, I live on Whidbey Island, which is a spectacular thing about myself. I work with people who have had all kinds of losses. I have a small private practice here on Whidbey Island and I have an office over on the other side where I also see people for pastoral care, often people can't find somebody who can walk them through what they're going through from their faith perspective. I'm a chaplain. I've responded to many, many disasters, I was at Hurricane Katrina, for a long time, repeatedly went back to those, but also hurricanes, not just hurricanes, but also tornadoes and wildfires and a number of other natural disasters. So those are the things that I've done. Yes.
Jennifer Levin
Do you mind sharing a little bit about yourself? Personally, married, family?
Cindi Sinnema
Yes. So I'm married, and have a 14 year old son, who's the same age as my grandchildren. We have a wide spectrum of ages of children. So we have adult kids who and so we have a little grandson. And I have grandgirls who are 14, 15, you know, in the same age range as Kyle, and Kyle turns 14 tomorrow. So that's our family.
Jennifer Levin
Congratulations, congratulations. Tell us a little bit about the work that you do with individuals who have experienced a sudden or unexpected death.
Cindi Sinnema
Well, a lot of people who have experienced a sudden or traumatic death have a lot of support at the beginning of that. Because everyone who knows the person who died, is going through the same thing. So people tend to rally well, at those times. So people may be surrounded by their family and extended family, or even their work community or their neighborhood, so whoever the person was to them who died suddenly also had a group of friends. So it seems like at the beginning, there's a real rallying where people get together and lean on each other for support. But in our country, we don't do grief for very long. If people have any kind of bereavement leave, it's three to five days. Actually, there's a city here in Washington, that gives its employees nine days and that's the most generous bereavement leave that I've ever heard, but we call it bereavement leave. So there's kind of an expectation that when you come back from that leave, you'll be better. And we should actually call it funeral leave, I think because that's what it is, it's to go participate in a service. Your work certainly isn't over at that point. So often, what happens is people have that initial beginning of support, and they're in shock. They don't even know what they need. And a few months later, they realize that most of the support is melted around, melted and they still have a need for support. So I do a grief support group on the other side, but sorry, eventually people try to find some kind of support. So that's how people usually find me. And it's usually been a little while because their own community has rallied around them at the beginning.
Jennifer Levin
Okay, and when they find you, what type of support do you provide?
Cindi Sinnema
A lot of it is just listening at the beginning, right? They need someplace to tell their story. And they may have, they may have now a fractured relationship with someone that's close to them, who wasn't as supportive, as they felt they could have been, their support circle, grief really rewrites your address book. And so the people around them are different than they anticipated. So often, besides the grief, they have layers of disappointment, or frustration, or outright anger, there may be somebody actually to blame for this. So there's just this constellation of emotions. And something is making all that primary. So it's usually very much embedded in their story. And so listening, I'm always fascinated when someone comes for an appointment, and talks for an hour. And I pray at the end, and they leave and they say, thank you so much, I feel so much better. And I didn't say anything. Right. It was just having a new audience, having someone that they didn't have to explain or filter their emotions for. And, and having someone asked some questions, having someone participate in what they're feeling.
Jennifer Levin
You said so many important things there. Obviously, the listening, listening is so important. But the fractured relationships, you know, that's a secondary loss, as we call it, clinically, for lack of a better term. I just wanted to point out to people who are who are listening, how that can't be underscored or emphasized enough, because I have so many people talk about these fractured relationships that occur. And you said it, you have such a way with words, I could listen to you, as my best friend would say, read the phone book, I could listen to you read the phone book all day, you have such a way with words, because grief does rewrite your address book, as you just said, and there are so many disappointments in relationships that occur, and especially it doesn't you don't notice it right away. And it happens a couple months afterwards. And as you said that people find you a little bit later on after that initial rally, and I don't think people realize that in the beginning how important that's going to be later on for them.
Cindi Sinnema
So, we spend a lot of time talking about the difference between grief and mourning. So grief is what we do by ourselves. One of my favorite quotes says that grief is individual work that we can't do alone. So grief is what we do by ourselves. Because even if the whole family lost one person, everybody lost a unique relationship with that person. But mourning is what we do together. And the root word of mourning is to remember. So it's how we remember. And I think one of the first things to remember is that this happened to all of us, I work with a lot of first responder families when there's been a line of duty death. And this happened to all of us. And that's a connecting point, it happened to all of us differently. But we're all in this together. And I think that that helps soothe some of the isolation that grief makes us feel as a natural part of it. So finding ways to connect, somebody doesn't have to understand you perfectly, to still be a part of the process, and to still be welcomed in to that process. It can be done together. Relationships don't have to remain the same, to still be loving and functional and in a way supportive of one another in whatever fashion that can happen.
Jennifer Levin
What attracted you to this type of work?
Cindi Sinnema
You know what, I don't know that anybody wakes up in the middle of the night and thinks I am going to work with people in the midst of the most horrific crisis. My mom and my oldest daughter are teachers. And they both knew they were going to be teachers their whole entire life. I didn't have that kind of experience. I went to the University of Washington, I was a sociology major, and within embedded in sociology was a criminal justice subdivision. And while I was doing that, I was a intern at the Seattle Police Department in the victim witness unit, and met a lot of families in the midst of their crisis. And while I was an undergrad, I was writing a paper on the impact of homicide on grief. And I actually thought I was just going to read a couple books and write a nice sociologically sound paper. And there wasn't anything written. And I did some research and stumbled across the name of Dr. Edward K. Rynearson, and he was here in Seattle. So I called him and he answered, and invited me to come have a conversation with him. And then he invited me to come witness some of the groups that he was doing. And it was such an honor. And after I graduated, I actually went to work for Dr. Rynearson at separation and loss services at Virginia Mason, and our, our contract, we had an agreement with the medical examiner's office, and they would allow us to reach out to everyone who had had a sudden and traumatic death, Dr. Rynearson was doing research, but we also could offer them support groups. So Dr. Rynearson, had a support group. And I often helped people fill out Crime Victims Compensation forms or those kinds of things. And I began doing a support group as well at that point. I worked for Dr. Rynearson for six or seven years, and then left when I had another baby. And after she went to preschool, I went back to school and finished my chaplaincy training at that time, and then started responding to natural disasters. And one of the things that I've realized is, grief is the presence of absence. And so people are grieving all kinds of things in the midst of a disaster. I was so grateful for the training that I've had under Dr. Rynearson, as I was working, even in natural disasters, those sorts of things produce a lot of grief. So it wasn't necessarily a one day I woke up and said, This is what I'm gonna do. It's more a path, I followed a river. And and that's where it got me.
Jennifer Levin
Well, sometimes those are the most interesting journeys of them all. Yes, we know that grief is such a unique experience, and that every story is so different. But I find that there are some major patterns or themes that consistently arise in my clients journeys. And I'm curious, what are some of the major challenges or issues that primarily come up when you are working with your clients?
Cindi Sinnema
I think people are really familiar, even just on a, on a cultural level, people are pretty familiar, or can recite some of the Elizabeth Kubler Ross stages. So I think very often people feel like grief is going to be neat and tidy. It's going to be predictable. Maybe like having a cold, people are aware that it's going to hurt, but they think that there's going to be a predictable pattern. And so, when it's so messy, and so unique, even around a family, that's often a big surprise. And I think especially for women, although for both genders, I think the shift is in our identity. All of a sudden, you're a grieving individual, and you may have a title, you may be a widow or an orphan, it can jar our identity. And I don't think people are prepared for that. I don't think people are prepared for how part of the task is figuring out what now and what does this mean? And how do I integrate this into the rest of my life? And so I think that there are parts of grief, because in our culture, death can be entertainment. It's hard to watch a movie where somebody doesn't die. Even fairytales even Disney movies, start with a parent dying often. And so it's hard to it's hard to watch a movie where we don't have some sense of that. But it all wraps up in 90 minutes. It's all predictable and neat and tidy. And so I think that people have before they've experienced a loss, they think they know what that experience is going to be like. And then it's so consuming, and so jarring, and so deeply involving every system, right? It's very physical. It's very emotional. It's very cognitive. It's very behavioral. It's very social, it's very spiritual. There's no way to escape. One of the things that I noticed during natural disasters, if you respond to a tornado, you're in the middle of all this devastation. But the lovely people I worked with, if we got really overwhelmed, after a few days, we could get in vans, and travel for 20 miles, and go get an ice cream cone or go get dinner, we could escape the devastation for a little bit and return to some normalcy. You can't do that with grief, there's no, there's no escaping it, it's everywhere. It changes your landscape. And that's, I think, I think that's jarring for people. They just want some relief somewhere, and there isn't anywhere to go without reminders. And without the truth of this, meeting them there.
Jennifer Levin
Do you find yourself doing a lot of kind of education or validating that this is this is how it works?
Cindi Sinnema
Right. So I feel like what I do most is education. What I didn't say is that when I was going to school, I worked with a midwife who delivered babies at home and helped teach childbirth classes. And grief support feels to me a lot like that process, really believing that people have the capacity to heal, with or without support. We're designed to heal, and people heal, but they heal better when they have some information when they realize that what they're going through is normal. And when there's somebody who can give them some ideas about what may help in their situation, or their family, or what they're going through.
Jennifer Levin
How else do you help your clients?
Cindi Sinnema
So part of what I do is try to get to know, I'm curious about who they were before this happened. So I want to know, were your reader, was outside really important to you. What did you do before this, that you felt helped calm you or helped fill you up? So part of what it is, is being curious about what has worked in the past. So if somebody is a reader, and that's a way that they've gained information before, then there are certainly wonderful books to suggest. But if somebody isn't a reader, it's not helpful to give them a book list. So really, it's a reintroducing of the client to themselves, to the things that have worked before, to the places where they found strength, and healing and hope. It's remembering,
Jennifer Levin
Using their strengths to help them heal. So, as a therapist, religion and spirituality sometimes comes into play with my clients, and sometimes it doesn't. It all really depends on who I'm working with, their belief system, and what's important to each person. And I always make a point of asking, I find that some of my clients are really, really angry with God. Some of them are actually really sad that they don't have a relationship or a faith system and are even envious of those who do, wishing that they had something to hold to at this time, or seeing that other people who do and thinking maybe it would be easier for them. And I see some clients holding really tight to their belief system and see that it really helps them. Can you talk more about belief systems, spirituality and its role in grief altogether? For those people who maybe don't have a belief system or spirituality, or spirituality doesn't have a role in their life right now, when they're grieving.
Cindi Sinnema
I think for grieving people, spirituality is one of the places that they have to get to know themselves again. Right. And unfortunately, one of the things that I do in our support group is we talk about what's the most painful or the most ridiculous thing that someone has said to you while you've been grieving.
Jennifer Levin
I'm sure you get a list, a long list.
Cindi Sinnema
At a lot of people say I can only say one, what are you talking about? So, embedded in our culture, there is some sense of some kind of spirituality. So, for a person who's grieving, the people around them want them to feel better. So they hand them a lot of things, they send flowers, they bring casseroles, they, whatever they do, but often, people end up hearing things from somebody else's faith perspective. So it's a time very often where people get faith, or spirituality kind of pushed on them, as if it would be a remedy. So that I believe, really shuts off the ability for anybody to be able to explore by themselves what they believe. Often people have maybe walked away from a childhood or a family faith. And now this event has caused them to want to re-explore or at least rethink those things. Faith has a important anchoring for the people whose faith is very strong. But even if their faith is very strong, this may be this, this horrible tragedy, there's this dramatic, that may be the first time that their faith has been tested, that it's been shaken to this, this degree. So faith is one of those things that doesn't have a neat and tidy place in grief. And people can have various beliefs all within the same day. Right? I do believe in God, I don't believe in God, I don't want to believe in God. And if there's a God, I hate him, right? And all that is really normal. And it's a part of processing, what exactly do I feel? And what exactly do I think? And what exactly do I believe, and those are all different parts of the processing of the grief. So the people I find that have the biggest struggle, had a really hard and fast faith that labeled everything good and bad. Because now all of a sudden, they're in this liminal place where nothing fits that kind of a label. And it's, that's very traumatic. So the people who've had a very rigid or very strong faith, but that was very, very black and white, all of a sudden, are forced to rethink things and to reveal things, and then to rebelieve things. So it's a whole process. Just like with all of our emotions on grief, it's just one more facet of what people and families go through. Because that's the other place that fractures happen, when somebody has a very rigid faith that they're finding their answers in. Their answers may not work for everybody in the family. So faith is one of those things that often people need an outside set of ears to help explore.
Jennifer Levin
And is that what you spend a lot of time doing with your clients?
Cindi Sinnema
Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jennifer Levin
And what would you suggest to people who are feeling really lost in their faith when it comes to grief?
Cindi Sinnema
Actually, it's kind of the same as with self care, or what with what works? When's the last time you felt solid in your faith? When's the last time you felt comforted by your faith? Let's go back there for a minute. And let's feel that again, what, when's the last time you felt secure in your faith? Let's go back there for a moment. And what were all the contributing factors to that and how many of those are still true? And if they're not true, what's true in their place? And so a lot of that kind of exploring, it's okay to wonder. Grief is full, full of wondering. And those are okay things to do, even from a faith perspective. Especially from a faith perspective.
Jennifer Levin
You just mentioned self care and I'm going to ask you about that now. I know you love your work, it's so obvious from my relationship with you and just listening to you right now. But how do you take care of yourself? I mean, how do you recharge? You've done so much in terms of natural disasters on a large scale. And then just the work you do one on one. So what do you do to take care of yourself?
Cindi Sinnema
There are a few things that I do for me, outside is always gonna fix everything. So we live in a beautiful spot. And if I go out of my driveway and walk two miles, I'm to saltwater. If I go out of my driveway and turn the other way, and walk two miles, I'm to a lake. So there's not any lack of beauty around here. And in my own yard, I have a very large vegetable garden, I grow a lot of flowers, all of those things, I find very healing, I think my favorite form of self care, is to spend time with others doing something not related to grief, whether it's a walk at the beach, or having coffee, I also have a very large dog who enjoys the beach as much as I do. And so I always have company when I go, and he himself is very comforting. So being outside, being with people I love, doing something unrelated to the work. This work has a way of permeating every part of your life. And if you're not careful, it can permeate friendships. So friendships are only based on kind of what you know, or that kind of thing. So I have a very direct off switch. That's helpful. My dog does not care at all about what I do. He's not even a little tiny bit impressed. He wished I didn't do it so much.
Jennifer Levin
Interesting, mine as well. Yeah. What are other self care practices that you recommend to your clients?
Cindi Sinnema
The first one is usually slow, deep breathing, right? Because it's always available. If there are kids or young people involved, slow, deep breathing and tracing a star, something I've taught my own son. And it was interesting, when we, when he first started junior high, he went to a brand new school, which is not an optimum time to start a new school and not know anyone. And when he got out of the car, it was in the middle of COVID. So when he got out of the car, I couldn't go in with him. Because parents weren't allowed in the school. And as he walked out, he said, I wish this was my old school. And he closed the door and then disappeared into the building. I thought, oh, gosh, right. I hope he has everything that he needs for the day. And when he got in the car, at the end of the day, he was glowing. He had had so many wonderful experiences all day, and everyone was wonderful. And he felt included and made a lot of friends. But he got in the car. And he said I only needed to star breathe once. So I was so proud of him that he had something because Star breathing is simply tracing a star and with each which with each element of the Star breathing in, or breathing out. And it's a really good way to integrate left and right brain and to calm yourself down and to rethink, Am I really that nervous? What do I need to do? What's the next step, but it's a great way, and you have all the tools already. You don't have to go find something to calm yourself down. So slowly breathing and for people of faith, adding a prayer element to that. So saying something as you breathe in and breathing out some stress, but all those things people have right at hand with them. So that's the first one. But then some curiosity about what did you find soothing before? And going back to those things awakening the things that have been quieted by all the noise of grief.
Jennifer Levin
And my final question for you today is what advice do you have for individuals who are just in that deep, dark pain at the beginning of their journey, after experiencing the sudden death of a loved one?
Cindi Sinnema
I think that it's important for all of us to remember that we do heal. And so at the very beginning, even just getting through an hour is a big accomplishment. And to be patient with yourself and to be patient with the people around you. There is no right thing to say. So if people are being quiet, it's because they're afraid to hurt you. They don't want to hurt you anymore. And to reach out out to the people that you feel are safe with zero expectations, saying you don't have to do anything except sit with me for a minute. Figure out what it is that you need, and find it in the safest place possible.
Jennifer Levin
That's great. Like I said, you just have the most warm, comforting, safe voice in the world. And I could just sit and listen to you all day. So thank you so much for your time today, for your thoughts, your expertise, your guidance, so much appreciated. And so helpful. So again, Cindy Sinnema. Thank you again.
Cindi Sinnema
Thank you very much.
Jennifer Levin
There were so many things about Cindi’s comments that I find resourceful grounding for individuals living with a sudden death. Cindi really understands the power of telling the story associated with the loss of your loved one and the need to have others listen and witness your pain. She understands the complexities of grief and how messy grief can be. Yet, she fosters healing with authentic techniques available to us all. Faith, a calm voice, and channels to help her clients reconnect with themselves. She is a strong believer in self-care, the power of breath and curiosity. I am truly blessed to call Cindi a friend and colleague. Being in her presence is like being enveloped in comfort and peace.
If you want an opportunity to connect with Cindi please join our facebook group “Talking about the Podcast Untethered with Dr. Levin.” Cindi biography is posted along with her contact information if you would like to connect with her.
Our next podcast will be on December 21st and will feature Marti Brown who shares the sudden loss of her husband who died in a car accident and what it is like to experience such a devastating loss when she was in her mid 20s.
Thank you so much for joining today’s episode of Untethered Healing the Pain After a Sudden Death. For help with a sudden and unexpected loss, sign up for my free mini course, where I will teach you about the 3 Truths About Living With A Sudden and Unexpected Loss. Please visit www.fromgrieftogrowth.com to sign up.
